RWYH 15

Episode 15 Transcript

Why Social-Emotional Learning Matters for Everyone (ft. Meri McCoy-Thompson)

Meri McCoy-Thompson
I basically spent the rest of my life building the kind of community that I need to thrive. And, now, I have the joy of helping other people do that as well. The most important thing we can teach kids is how to have relationships.

Aimee Hanna
Welcome to Remember Why You're Here, a podcast created by the Center for Innovation and Resources, where we host conversations with experts in the field about what started their journey to do work around abuse and healing. CIR is a small nonprofit with big goals. We organize events aimed to fulfill our vision that all professionals who serve children, families, and communities will have the knowledge, skills, and training to act in a holistic and culturally responsive manner. To see more of what we do, visit cirinc.org.

Crystal Cardenas
Meri McCoy-Thompson is the Executive Director of Dovetail Learning, a nonprofit focused on building resilience and social-emotional intelligence. She co-authored the heart of resilience, offering practical strategies for emotional strength, and authentic relationships. With a diverse background in nonprofits and academia, Meri empowers individuals of all ages to live healthier, more fulfilling lives.

Thank you so much, Meri, for coming on today. We really appreciate it. I'm so excited to introduce you to our listeners. And so as we get started, can you tell us just a little bit about yourself, and about Dovetail, and your role there?

Meri McCoy-Thompson
Yes, thank you. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much for the opportunity to be on this podcast and share our work with your listeners. So, yeah, I'm the Executive Director for Dovetail Learning.

And I've been there for six years. I came on as the COO, and then I transitioned to executive director. And my role there really is to help shape the vision at the deepest level. That's what I consider the most important.

Where are we really going and why? And a lot of that is thinking like, what problem do we need to be solving? And how do our special talents and gifts get us there?

And I mean, a lot of people want to help children. And that was our focus for almost 15 years with social-emotional learning. But when we stepped back, we realized adults do not have the skills to shape children in the way that they want.

So they need to better social-emotional resilience skills, so they can model and Coach kids. And that's what we really leaned into. We know we have a talent for training, and creating products, and books that speak to children. So we know that people love what we do.

We just needed to shape that in a different way. And I think I was really big part of that when I came into Dovetail Learning and helping us have that major pivot, which was bumpy, and challenging, and got us to where we're going, the direction we're going in now.

Crystal Cardenas
I love that. So tell us a little bit about your personal journey.

Meri McCoy-Thompson
Yeah, I mean, I've worked for nonprofits around the world, which I love. And it's always been about how to empower people. I have a big focus on relationships. When I was a kid, I was that introverted kid. I liked to read, and I really didn't know how to make good friends.

But I got over that hump in middle school. My dad left our family. And we were going through a lot of turmoil. And I just figured out people can be my ally. And I can make friends with them.

And I learned how to do that, and how important community was to me. And so I've basically spent the rest of my life building the community that I need to thrive. And, now, I have the joy of helping other people do that as well.

Crystal Cardenas
So what inspired you to create the, we are resilient approach? 

Meri McCoy-Thompson
As I mentioned, it was really like seeing this big gap that adults want to help kids. A lot of adults want to help kids. And we don't have the social-emotional and resilience skills to do that.

And so we had created this great product for kids around how to learn specific social-emotional, and resilient skills. And, first, we were trying to just have adults use that. And we realized, no, that doesn't work. We need to create something special for adults and then bring it down to the kid level, which we started to do. We have products for students now. And we were a collaborative team. That's another thing that's really important about our approach. 

And all of us had different types of trauma. I mean, for people who are familiar with the Adverse Childhood Experiences and the a scale, there are people on our team who had ace of 9 out of 10 or 8 out of 10. A lot of trauma in the team and different types.

And so we really developed what we needed, and what we knew other people needed, too. And so we have different things. We have an approach that's easy to use, that's simple in terms of trying to get it hard.

It's a lifelong journey to get it right. But that was the impetus. How can we help adults help children better? And what do we need?

We wanted something that was universal, that was not for those people who need help, who are like, you see them sitting in the corner, whatever. But all of us need it. And so that was a really big part of it.

Crystal Cardenas
One of the things that I noticed when I was looking at your website, and I had watched that video about your coaching, which we'll get into in a little bit, was that you mentioned, there are five types of resilience. Could you just cover a little bit of that? Because that was the first time that I had ever really like heard it in terms of a term like that. I usually always hear resilience so broadly.

Meri McCoy-Thompson
Well, we understood that if we're actually going to be intentional about strengthening it, we have to dig deep. And when we dig deep, we saw, as I said, the five types of resilience. The first type is reactive resilience.

So that's how we react when things are hard. And it can be small, hard or big hard. It's when we feel a little bit vulnerable.

And there's six kinds of protective patterns that we use when we're in our reactive resilience. And one example is attacking. Sometimes people do that through hyper caretaking.

I have a friend. When things are bad for her, she's like, how can I help this person? I need to do this. Instead of taking care of her own issues, she's going to take care of somebody else. And, of course, raising kids, and taking care of elderly people, we often can move into that.

Another thing is avoiding. Avoiding is another kind of reactive resilient. So another kind of resilience we call cultural resilience. And so that's how we interact with people of different cultural patterns.

These are cultural patterns we have learned about from our family and our community. They're all things that we've gotten about how we should and shouldn't behave. And we don't even notice that we have them.

We think the whole world has these same lenses, these same glasses. And the reality is they don't. Even people in our same family, maybe because of different gender, different age, different types of different experiences, they learn different cultural patterns.

And so for cultural resilience is really noticing your cultural patterns, understanding other peoples, and being able to navigate those, and honor other people's cultural patterns. So being able to understand both those protective patterns and our cultural patterns, that is a huge difference. Just that alone can make a big difference. So there's that.

Then there's the personal resilience. That's our third type of resilience. And that's what most people think of as resilience. So that is like I've had a hard day, I'm going to get up, I'm going to be better.

Also important, all those things interact with that. But it's important to see what's getting in the way. That's why it's important to look at and figure out our reactive resilience and our cultural resilience first.

Then we also, after personal, we talk about our relational resilience. So important to have strong relational resilience with at least a few people in your life where things can happen like. But because we have strong relational resilience, I could step away, do a little mindful breathing, and come back.

And then the last kind of resilience we talk about is group resilience. So group resilience is a group that's functioning really well together. They're collaborative, and being able to they're effective.

But when you're in bad situations, when you don't have good group resilience, that one snap thing, it could escalate into something really bad. And so knowing that all of those interact with each other makes a huge difference. And knowing that we can strengthen all of them. That's what my passion is, knowing that we can strengthen all of them, and seeing the impact of when people do that, what happens.

Crystal Cardenas
Honestly, you're just blowing me away right now.

[LAUGHTER]

I'm just like, yes, this. And think about it. Because you're right, the resilience that people think about, is that personal.

Meri McCoy-Thompson
That's right.

Crystal Cardenas
But those other factors, especially the cultural and the reactive, are so important in shaping those behaviors. And to me, I think about this whole world. I don't know. I get so excited. But I'm like, we don't even have the terms. We don't have the language, the understanding. And so when you don't have that, how are you ever supposed to really improve, and get better, and how are your communities supposed to improve and get better when we don't have the language for it?

Meri McCoy-Thompson
Exactly. And that's why our materials are open educational resources. That's why we want people to go to our website, download stuff, learn about this in so many different ways. Because we know the more people that get the language, people can do this. We can all do it, but we need to learn about it.

Once we learn about it-- and our intentional, it takes practice. It's not something we can just learn, and I got it all right. And also forgive ourselves and understand it's a lifelong journey. I'm always going to make mistakes. Everyone's always going to make mistakes, and that's OK.

And knowing that organizations in groups. I'm working with the school. And they were saying some of the leaders in the school have been trained for several years now. So, now, we're seeing some of the fruits of the labor.

And they said they can just go into meetings. And people have the common language. And they had forgotten. And they bring it up and like, oh.

And then they can talk through things in a way. I mean, it strengthens the whole group. People are, they're better as human beings, and they're better together. So it's really powerful.

Crystal Cardenas
Yeah, I love that. And I think one of the things that I'm just curious about is just like vulnerability in terms of would you say that's one of the things that's required to build group resilience. Or what is it? What is that?

[LAUGHTER]

What do you need for group resilience?

Meri McCoy-Thompson
What do you need for group resilience? Well, one of the things is all the things we talked about interact together. So that's the first thing. Understanding like you can't go into build your group resilience if people are not also working on their reactive resilience, and their personal resilience, and their relational resilience. So all those things interact.

I would say vulnerability is important. But even more important is a belief that it's possible, and a desire to want to make it happen. So that when people mess up, it's built into the way we think about this work is like, yeah, you're going to make mistakes, and therefore, let's do x. Let's take steps around that.

But giving everybody the benefit of the doubt for that. So you have to go in, being willing to do that, which means overlooking things that bother you about people, and leaning in on the things that you like about them, and learning to appreciate the things that you like about them. Even though they're not, they still may do those other thing.

There's a lot of things we can do to really focus on both for ourselves being more positive and our groups being more positive. That make a huge difference. We can't change what happens to us.

There are so many things that happen to us. Every corner we turn around, there's something else. I feel that way in my last six months. I'm like, woo hoo. Every time I turn around, like oh, now, we're dealing with this.

But just by doing that, by being intentional, it makes all the difference. We can handle those things in a better way, and we can create families, and communities, and systems that work better.

Crystal Cardenas
I love that. And I think you are so spot on. It's something that I hadn't really reflected on. But when you said that you have to believe that it's possible.

Because I do think that negativity, it really does bring down the group. And so I hadn't thought about it in terms of that, how important that is.

Meri McCoy-Thompson
There's always going to be people who sit-in the back with their arms crossed. You don't believe this. But giving people time to experience it over time, and to see the growth, so often, people then will be willing to step in.

It's OK. We don't all have to buy in the beginning. But as long as we're heard, and we feel seen, over time, people are open. They understand. When they can see the change, then they start becoming advocates and believers. And that makes a big difference.

Crystal Cardenas
Just thinking about social and emotional learning, and thinking about school coming up. I'm sad because I'm already thinking about school starting. And also, I want to start because my kids drive me crazy.

Meri McCoy-Thompson
Of course. Of course.

Crystal Cardenas
It's a two-way street.

Meri McCoy-Thompson
But that's all of life. All of life. You have the joy, and the tension, and the challenges all mixed together. And so that's one of the things I love about this work. It's acknowledging, yes, there's challenges, there's pain, there's sorrow, there's loss. All of that is true.

And there's beauty, and joy, and wonder. So the more time we spend thinking about the beauty, joy, and wonder, and the more time we spend building our resilience, when those challenges come, we're like, OK, I got this. I can do it.

Crystal Cardenas
Yes. So thinking about schools and kids, I wanted to just ask how you think technology, and technology specifically in schools has affected the social emotional learning of children.

Meri McCoy-Thompson
Well, it's super clear. The research is super clear. The first thing that I'm a huge advocate for is banning phones in school. And Jonathan Haidt has written a book after Babel with several colleagues. And if you haven't gotten it, I totally recommend it. And he has a newsletter on Substack.

It's super clear. Phones hurt social emotional learning. They hurt the resilience of kids. They hurt mental health. And I know parents feel like I need to reach my kids at all times.

Well, the reality is, if they understood how those phones were hurting their children over long term, they would say, OK, it's worth it. OK, I won't be able to reach my kid during the school day. But look, what I'm going to give them instead.

So I just hope more parents and families. Spend time educating themselves about what the danger is. I have to say, for kids, when you just need a break, you need something to do. You need some distraction, what you do x.

For them to understand how they can calm themselves down, how they can play, whatever without having that screen. It changes their minds and changes the way they interact with people.

The most important thing we can teach kids is how to have relationships. Relationships are the key to our life. They're the key to our success. They are everything.

And somehow, we pretend that they're not. We don't talk about how to do them better in school. We just actually reading, writing, and math. Well, yes, that's important. But without relationships, our lives are flat.

And the way we do that is by interaction, by practice. They need you as a parent to be interacting with them. They need to be interacting with each other. They need all the practice they can get.

And screens just break that down. That's a really long answer. But you can tell I really am passionate about the topic.

Crystal Cardenas
And our listeners cannot see me. But I'm just like nodding my head so many times because my seven-year-old, last year was probably the hardest. I've had to deal with.

And not because of school. She's super bright. It was having her understand and navigate the friendships of like, one day, if she didn't have these shoes, so then she can't hang out with these girls. Or then the other day it was, well, this one is my best friend, and she's not.

And so she'd come home every day confused, and upset, and hurt. And I have my mama bear on. And I just kept telling myself, I need to just help her.

Meri McCoy-Thompson
That's right.

Process this. I have to help myself.

Yay for you. Yay for you.

Crystal Cardenas
I never told the teacher anything. At the end of the year, I said to the teacher, do you know if she's going to have these certain girls that she'd been struggling with? And she's like I don't know why. And I said, well, she had a really hard year.

And she said, she did? I never knew. Why didn't you tell me? I said, because it's her job to navigate it. And it's my job to support her.

But it was even challenging between us, like mother-daughter, because at one point, she said, well, you don't like her, this one little girl. And I just was trying to point out things this little girl is now teaching you about is aware of calorie counting, and carbs. And just likes the fifth grader in your first grade. So, yeah, there's a lot of things I don't like.

So at one point when she said that I had to step back and say, OK, I'm being a little overbearing. I need to keep my opinions to myself, and just be there to help navigate. And even just her dress, she wanted to become cool and stylish. Friends come in, and this peer pressure.

And so then she had a shift in will people make fun of me if I wear this. And she would ask me. And it's part of me is sad that I'm losing my daughter with character. But then the other part is I understand that this is part of trying to fit in.

Meri McCoy-Thompson
That's right.

Crystal Cardenas
OK, so we'll get vans now. Or whatever the case may be. And it's interesting. I think I'm going to be honest. One of the things I've seen within my family, including my brothers, I'm the youngest of five. I have four older brothers.

And we did grow up really struggling. My parents came from Mexico to really live that American dream. So I think when you come out of that as an adult, and we've been very fortunate that all of us have successful careers, you want to give your children the things that you didn't have.

You look at real Barbie. And you're like, I want that Barbie. Or like with the Vans, I hadn't bought that stuff. But I remember being teased because I didn't have name-brand shoes.

And so I want to spare my child, and I want to give her all these things. You don't connect because we didn't go through that. We had this social-emotional learning because we had no other choice. You don't connect how it's going to damage your children in terms of that aspect.

Meri McCoy-Thompson
Beautifully said, Crystal. It's beautifully said. No, because that's the issue. Parents think, I didn't have the money. I got teased. This will all solve the problem.

Crystal Cardenas
And just I'll solve the problem with the phone. I'll solve the problem with the nice shoes. I'll solve the problem by giving them the things.

Meri McCoy-Thompson
Not understanding, first of all, navigating how you're different from the group. That's part of growing up. That's part of learning those skills.

It's easy for me to look back and say, I'm glad that we struggled and didn't have money. I look back and I'm like, I feel sorry for my mom as a single mom not having any money. And she's really stressed.

But, for me, I can see how good it was. And I think that was my fortune really was to say, well, I mean, I don't want my kids to feel insecure financially. We might not have.

That's when you're in a different place. You're not going to have food in the house. I did really want them to know how much else is out there that money can't buy. And that all those things are the most important things you can give your kids.

And the things that money can buy that you think, well, then they won't have x. They're going to have a different thing. And it could actually be worse.

I mean, it's so clear that taking away all the challenges from your kid, just like taking challenges away from us. When we do our training, we talk about the importance of positive stress in our life. And taking away the challenges of your kid is the same way.

It takes away the ability to grow and to feel strong that you made it through. The challenges that we go through, especially if we-- because I did have loving parents. Especially if we have somebody who has our back, those challenges are what we need to get there to the next place.

That's true for us that as adults. We have somebody who has our back. We also need challenges.

Crystal Cardenas
So I guess just going off of the stress and what that is. How do we get to the point of realizing that the stress is too much, that it's not actually building our resilience, that we're just [INAUDIBLE].

Meri McCoy-Thompson
Definitely. Mental health professionals are important. And there are times we need to ask for help. And sometimes we need to ask those close of us say, I think I might need help. And can you help me get help? That's for sure true.

So how do we recognize when it's too much? I think often, it's the people close to us who are telling us. I think you seem depressed.

Are you open to counseling? Are you open to getting some help here? Your anxiety is getting out of control. Are you open to? And so listening to that feedback from those that the people that we trust.

Crystal Cardenas
So it still goes back to the relationships.

Meri McCoy-Thompson
It goes back to the relationships. Yeah. Because the other thing, I mean, our approach is really preventative. So one of the images we say is like, OK, if you're really struggling, it's like a donut tire. It's going to help you get off the side of the road, but you probably will still need something else.

We've had people with very severe issues and they're like, well, this is not going to-- and I'm like, no, there's a lot of people working on that severe depression. Those are the people you need when you're in that situation. This is for everybody, for all of us. Yeah.

Crystal Cardenas
Yeah, I love that. OK, so tell us about your new book. I'm so excited. I've already pre-ordered just so you know. I'm waiting. And I was very excited for you that you hit your goal.

Meri McCoy-Thompson
Yes.

Crystal Cardenas
Tell us about your book. 

Meri McCoy-Thompson
Yeah, we had a Kickstarter. We did the Kickstarter launch a couple of weeks ago. And it's finished. So, now, we'll be taking pre-orders. And then it comes out August 15.

Crystal Cardenas
So the book is-- yay.

Meri McCoy-Thompson
Yay. Super excited. We've been working on it for a year and a half. The book is The Heart of Resilience: Nurturing Your Inner Strength for a Joyful Life. And it really goes through not even the whole, we are resilient approach, but just part of it.

Because we're like, this is so much we can help people with. It's going to need to be two books. But it really helps the personal. So it talks about reactive resilience, it talks about cultural resilience, it talks about the resilient mindsets, and it talks about our centering skills.

And it does that through stories. So we have trained thousands of people. We have more than 100 people who are now coaches. And we are resilient.

And in all of the process of training, of course, people are so grateful to learn these things. And so we just interviewed people and said, can you share some stories with us about how things are working in your life, whether it's the reactive resilience, or whether it's your resilient mindsets? And we got lovely stories. People being very vulnerable with us.

More than hundreds of those people are featured in the book, as well as myself and my co-author, Chuck Fisher. And they illustrate, they bring to life what we're trying to talk about. And for us, it was such a joy to write and to work with.

Because when we do training, we do trainings in cohorts. And everyone shares stories. That's integral to our training. How is this working for you? What are you learning in your life?

And we know that's where it really starts to work and to settle into people's when they hear about how it's working. So that's the approach we wanted to use in the book. So people tell the stories about when they're avoiding, and when it's working, and when it's not, and how their cultural patterns are influencing that, or when they're lashing out, like I said, or when they're being defending, and how that's working.

And so each chapter goes through. We have 25 chapters. They go through parts of those parts of the book, parts of the approach. And it illustrates how it can work for people.

There's questions about reflection and how this might work for you. And we're very excited about another way to get the word out to people, because that's what we're really about. If you want to be intentional, if you want to lift up your life, if you want to learn how to deal with your challenges better, here's a good way to do it. This worked for a lot of people. Why don't you try it?

Crystal Cardenas
I love that. And I just want to say and just acknowledge that Dovetail Learning, you really do embody that wanting to have everybody have these tools. And you really genuinely want to help all individuals. And people say that all the time.

There's all these organizations that are like, this is what our mission is. But I just so clearly remember feeling so drawn to the organization, so drawn to wanting to become a coach. Because when I watched your FAQ webinar on becoming a coach, you were like, we have a sliding scale if you can't figure it out.

And also, sometimes we barter if we absolutely. And I thought, no one ever does that anymore. That really is community to barter and say, hey, how can we support each other? Usually, it's like, yeah, we have this great thing. And I hope you can figure out how to get the money to do it.

Meri McCoy-Thompson
I know. I know. I have another woman working from Madagascar. She's working on social emotional learning there. So she's helping translate the materials for in French. And it's like, why wouldn't I want to work with these people who are doing so much in their communities? And that's true all over the place.

Yeah, I will say we're a nonprofit. And so we're always-- it's not like we can afford to do this because we have a great person giving us money from this guy. We don't have any big donors. We would love if you want. If you're interested in supporting us, please do. It's part of living out our values.

One of the things we did when we came started talking about the adults and how we all need this, we decided to adopt the Creative Commons license on all of our work. And that's it's an open educational resource, and it can be downloaded and shared for free. And so all of our training resources are that.

And we just felt like if we're not giving stuff away freely, how can we possibly reach all of us who don't have means, who don't have access? We can't. So by living out our values, someday the money will come or not.

[LAUGHTER]

Crystal Cardenas
It will. It will. I thinks like, how can we not feel inspired?

Meri McCoy-Thompson
Exactly.

Crystal Cardenas
To helping, to learning. And your heart is in it. That's why I love the title of your book, The Heart of Resilience, because I'm like, your heart is in this organization, in this goal in the community, and really just genuinely helping people.

OK, so let's talk about how people can become a resilience coach if that's what they are wanting to do. How are you doing it? What are your costs? What are the time commitments? How do we get more of these soldiers of yours out into the world?

Meri McCoy-Thompson
Great. As you mentioned, we have all sorts of training. So you can come in and get an introductory training. We have free webinars, two or three free webinars a month. If you're interested in diving in deeper, we really do advocate for the coach training because you take it in at such a deep level.

It's 30 hours of training. Usually, it helps people learn something, learn it from their peers, and then practice. The beginning of every session is how is your practice going. Because how is this working?

So, like I said, we do a lot of coach. Most of our coach certification trainings are actually done within organizations. So if it's a school 3 to 5, or 8 people, or a district, they all come together. We have health care clinics.

I have done social, and family support organizations. I've done research organizations all over the country. And it's wonderful when an organization can come together because then people can continue the dialogue, they continue the practice, and then they come together.

We also have an implementation lab for coaches. So the coaches come back, and they share with each other. Well, this is what I'm doing in my org, and this is what I'm doing in mine.

So we're really always trying to build community and network. For people who are like, well, there's nobody I know, then they join the open cohort. And we say, well, maybe you can get some colleagues in other organizations who work in your area.

Crystal Cardenas
That's great.

Your cohorts are done only online?

Meri McCoy-Thompson
We've definitely done them in person. We're in the San Francisco Bay Area. So to do it in person in a further way place, we would probably do intensive over time over a couple of different travels. One of the advantages of online is that a 90-minute a week gives a lot of opportunity for taking it in deeper.

Crystal Cardenas
Yeah, it's easier to incorporate it into your staff's work schedule.

Meri McCoy-Thompson
Exactly. Exactly. The schools often have, they have six hours in August, and six hours in January. They don't have any other time. So then we do it that way for them.

Crystal Cardenas
I love that. So as we near the end of our episode, I wanted to ask you my favorite question, which is our podcast is called Remember Why You're Here. And it's to remind our audience, the professionals that are out there every day serving their communities, serving children, serving families.

We want to help keep their hope and their inspiration going as life gets really difficult as you're serving families who are going through intensive trauma. So what advice can you give to our audience to help keep them going?

Meri McCoy-Thompson
Well, I have to say, for me, it's one of the reasons I do my work. Because of all those other people who are touching children directly, that's what I get passionate about. And so because our work is directly created to serve you, it's directly created to make your life a little bit more resilient. So you can have the skills to coach those you work with.

If you're working with children who have been abused, our skills can help you. And then we want you to pass them on, and coach, and model for the children you work with. That's why I get up every morning.

So I hope that you're able to take advantage of some of our materials, whether you take an official training, whether you buy the book, whether you just take webinars, whether you go to our YouTube channel, and watch our 50 YouTube videos, whether you go to our open educational resources and download our guides, our books, all sorts of things.

here's a lot of available resources. I will say, being trained. And we're going to start a new set of online training courses starting at the end of August or September.

Being trained with a cohort will make a huge difference in your life. So if you can carve an hour a week out for live training, I know it can be really hard when you have kids at home, you're working full time. If you can do that at all, it's the best gift you can give yourself.

You're going to come away with more energy. You're going to come away with more understanding of why you're behaving the way you are, and more empathy for yourself. And it will help you remember why you started to do the things that you want to do.

Crystal Cardenas
I love that. Thank you. And thank you for the work that you're doing. Thank you for continuing to provide resources for others, and for afflicting our children, and for keeping our communities strong.

Meri McCoy-Thompson
Thank you. Have a wonderful day.

Crystal Cardenas
To learn more about Dovetail Learning and to pre-order Meri's book, The Heart of Resilience: Nurturing Your Inner Strength, please visit dovetaillearning.org. That's dove, D-O-V-E, tail, T-A-I-L learning.org.

Thank you so much for listening to another episode of Remember Why you're Here. To access the transcript for this episode, and to learn more about what we do at CIR, please visit our website at cirinc.org. Until next time.

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