RWYH 14

Episode 14 Transcript

Back to School: Balancing Success and Well-being for Teachers, Parents, and Students (ft. Rochelle Anderson and Jose Ocegueda)

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Rochelle Anderson:
What kids are really learning is how to connect to each other and be humans.

Jose Ocegueda:
They want to be so close. They want to feel comfortable. They want to feel like they have a place. They want to feel kind of wanted.

Aimee Hanna:
Welcome to Remember Why You're Here, a podcast created by the Center for Innovation and Resources, where we host conversations with experts in the field about what started their journey to do work around abuse and healing. CIR is a small nonprofit with big goals. We organize events aimed to fulfill our vision that all professionals who serve children, families, and communities will have the knowledge, skills, and training to act in a holistic and culturally responsive manner. To see more of what we do, visit cirinc.org.

Crystal Cardenas:
Rochelle Anderson is a distinguished educator and leader with over 25 years of experience teaching grades K through 5 in a diverse school district. She specializes in mind-body medicine and mindful schools and leads district-wide social-emotional learning, where she builds connections with families and community partners. Rochelle uses evidence-based tools to design routines for children and families to promote simple, healthy lifestyles.

Jose Ocegueda brings over two decades of teaching experience to his role as an educator specializing in history, with a passion for teaching continuation high school students. Alongside his career, he has been happily married for 31 years, as well as the proud father to two girls and uncle to two foster nieces. His classroom motto, "in Jose we trust," reflects his dedication to inspiring and connecting with his students on a personal level.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

All right. Well, thank you, Rochelle and Jose, for joining us today. I know you both and have a special relationship with both of you, so I'm really excited to have you two together and to have this conversation. And I just did want to give all of the listeners a warning that Jose is my brother. If you see us in person, we look nothing alike. I'm good-looking and he's not. So just full disclosure that we are related.

But thank you both for coming on. Let's just jump right into it. Rochelle, will you tell us a little bit about your journey into teaching and what inspired you to be an educator?

Rochelle Anderson:
Good morning, Crystal. Good morning, Jose. Happy to be here. I started actually in the field of education because I was really interested in educational policy. So I got a master's in public administration, and I started working as a graduate student in an institute that was focused on implementing human services projects. And I worked on the evaluation side of that.

And one of the early experiences I had was following the Early Head Start project and working with families and providers in service to those kids. And at the end of that, I started feeling like I wanted to get my teaching credential and actually be working with kids directly. And so I've been teaching for 25 years, and in the last couple of years, I'm now leading social-emotional learning at the district level. And so that means that I'm helping teachers get training and looking at implementing Tier 1 curriculum and social-emotional learning into the classrooms.

And that's because my passion has been kind of working with kids who have experienced trauma and providing a classroom that is really responsive to all the other soft skills and other needs of kids in the classroom.

Crystal Cardenas:
Awesome. And, Jose, can you tell us a little bit about your journey and what inspired you to become a teacher?

Jose Ocegueda:
Being the oldest of five kind of puts you in with having to be around kids all the time, and so I was always comfortable. And then I coached and did all kinds of other things, too. My wife is a teacher. She started a couple of years before me.

So I just really liked history. I really liked kids, so it just seemed like a natural fit. I got hired as an emergency credential 20-something years ago. And I wasn't even fully credential. I didn't know what I was doing. I still apologize to those kids when I see them because I was so bad.

I worked at a continuation high school in Moorpark. They taught me so much about kids' learning in general. I did 16 years there. And for the last, I don't know, nine years or so, I've been in a traditional comprehensive high school. And it's a blast. I like going to work every day. I like kids. I've only wanted to be there.

Crystal Cardenas:
Tell me a little bit more about that, because, obviously, I know you and that transition for you. But how did that feel, when you transitioned from the continuation high school to the traditional high school?

Jose Ocegueda:
It was the toughest thing I've probably had to go through as far as professionally. Being able to have a deep impact on kids in such a small study, knowing that I could really help kids, was an amazing experience to see. And then the school district just went, we don't really need this. It's too expensive. It's not worth it.

And so that was really tough for me. I really did look at other continuation schools. My family was pretty much against it, so I just switched over to comprehensive school. I don't feel like I make as big as impact now as then. I still feel like I can do good, and it's important that I see the kids. But I see how many kids we leave behind because of this, and that still bothers me.

Crystal Cardenas:
Can you elaborate on why you feel like you're not making the same impact or why you're not able to support them as much?

Jose Ocegueda:
Yeah. My classes were smaller. The kids had really specific issues they were dealing with all on their own, and we could kind of focus on their individual needs and issues. And the education was obviously there. So I see them. I know they're struggling. But with 180 kids in the day versus 90 kids in a day, I'm just managing to deliver the content, and it's just a struggle to see them.

I know they're there. They see that I see them, but it's really hard.

Crystal Cardenas:
Rochelle, is there anything you want to add in terms of that? Because I see you nodding your head.

Rochelle Anderson:
Yeah. I really feel like I'm resonating with what Jose is saying. It's why I'm in the classroom and, as a teacher, what I'm looking at. And seeing the kids that have the needs and then really trying to make the space available to them and supportive for them, but also still holding this drive, that you feel the pressure as a teacher to keep the curriculum moving, it really feels like my heart tugs all the time about meeting a kid's needs versus meeting the greater good and making sure that the kids come out of there.

I feel full responsibility for the academics moving in the classroom and sort of the pressure that I feel about from administration or hitting targets and assessment needs, balancing that with very human needs. The higher order of needs of a child's emotional wellness comes before their academics. I know that. But as one person in the classroom, it does feel sometimes like I'm trying to do two very different things.

Crystal Cardenas:
Speaking of that, I did want to ask you both, and I'll have Jose start, what is your boundary? When is it that you decide, OK, this kid is dysregulated or really interrupting the classroom, and they've got to go to the principal, versus allowing the space for the kid to figure that out? What's your boundary?

Jose Ocegueda:
Obviously, it changes from kid to kid and situation to situation, and I have to hope that they trust they know this kid needs more of me and wants more of me. And I think taking them away and send them to the office or getting punished for them just needing a little bit of attention and wanting to feel safe-- the big thing is they need to feel safe. So they're going to act out in order to see how I react.

It can be a little bit of struggle, but it does vary with the kid.

Rochelle Anderson:
That's my experience, too, Jose. The other thing I would add to that is that I think I work long and hard on creating a community so that it doesn't feel like it's just me who's trying to caretake for the needs of everybody in the classroom. It kind of takes on its own feel.

I do a lot of "think aloud, feel aloud" things in the classroom so that the rest of the kids in the class, when there is a high need, a high behavioral need, maybe happening, the kids in the class begin to trust and watch what's happening, and they understand. Because it's sort of a turn-taking thing, where I'm attending to everyone's needs, and I'm sort of articulating for the class that I'm going to attend to this while they are doing something else. And the expectation is that that classroom has been set up so that we all care about each other.

And so they're kind of behind me as well. They want for the well-being of their classmates, because they're tuned in and empathetic. And I'm encouraging that constantly in the classroom, for them to be caretakers of each other as well, and so they feel like they have a role. I really get invigorated by having the community come together and that what kids are really learning is how to connect to each other and be humans and that the academics, they're there, but really the vehicle is that it's connection and that you can recognize, see someone, in your community and you can engage with them and that you are providing something.

Crystal Cardenas:
Jose, did you have anything to add to that?

Jose Ocegueda: 
Yeah. The way I do it, it's-- so there's my seating chart based on their needs, whether or not they know it. So students or kids that really don't need a lot from me will sit towards the back extremes. The kids that really need a lot of attention will sit closer. Of if they're disengaged, they'll sit closer to me, and I'll walk down the middle.

I never sit. If you ever see me in the classroom, I never sit. I'm always walking down the center aisle. And I get to see them, touch them, interact with them. And the high-achieving kids feel like they're left behind, almost, because I don't engage with them as much. They're further away from me physically.

I don't engage with them as much. And I tell them, well, you don't need much from me. You'll be fine, no matter who you get. And these kids right here really, really need-- I say they need me to watch them, that I need them to be close to me physically. It really makes a difference. And it does help them become better students, more engaged, and really closer to me emotionally just because it's physical.

Crystal Cardenas:
Right. And the other thing that I know just from knowing you is that you always have that open-door classroom. At lunch, he just has a bunch of kids all the time, and they just hang out there. And I'm like, why do these kids want to come to your classroom at lunch? But that's what they do.

And I do feel like that is a testament to the safety that they're feeling. Right?

Jose Ocegueda:
I think, as educators, we're-- oh, sorry. We're told all the time that relationship-building is like the most important thing, and that's to me what that speaks to.

Yeah, they want to be feel close. They want to feel comfortable. They want to feel like they have a place. They want to feel kind of wanted. And so they come in and say hi, just say hi. I have kids come in who just want to hug and then leave, unless-- well, they haven't seen you in two years. Yeah, I know, but whatever. So that's always fun.

Crystal Cardenas:
I love that. OK, so, Rochelle, you were saying your role has changed. So can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing now? And to be honest-- because I don't know what it is, what social emotional learning is and what that looks like in the classroom.

Rochelle Anderson:
Sure. So the role is a teacher on special assignment. So moved out of the classroom to thinking sort of with a district lens. And our district has been responding to behavioral needs that we're seeing and being pretty progressive in deciding to adopt a social-emotional curriculum. So for the first year, what that meant was that I started researching social-emotional learning curriculum, which is based on the CASEL competencies.

And CASEL is sort of the think tank for everything that would be social-emotional learning. So the five competencies being self-awareness, kids being able to learn those skills, relationship skills, self-regulation skills, and then to have those guided by a teacher through curriculum and practiced in the classroom, integrated into the academic day. So what Jose and I have been talking about is how we are making our classrooms places where there is social learning going on.

We're talking about these soft skills that maybe kids used to come in before because they had these great home lives, and they learned self-regulation at home. And they had models of it. And neurologically, they were raised this way in a safe environment where they got to learn how to self-regulate. But what we know about trauma is that it's showing up in our classrooms, and the things in our culture have changed a lot. And maybe kids are not getting these skills explicitly taught at home.

So a social-emotional learning curriculum is going to be explicitly teaching these skills through lessons, but then the lesson is sort of integrated and woven into your day. So when we're looking at seat work or group work or even just kids are lining up, how does a teacher guide and articulate what that skill was, but in practice, in their little tiny exchanges-- I'm talking about in an elementary level-- where I'm saying, that is really good conflict resolution? And in my brain, I know what I'm looking at from the teacher lens, but in kid language, I am just saying, hey, you worked it out. You said what you needed, and then you let the other person have a different opinion. And you guys worked that out.

That's a communication skill. And so kids need coaching and practice and time in the classroom to get that, as well as sit down and read and learn phonics. So that's what the curriculum is doing. And so now we're going to be rolling this curriculum out. All teachers and all staff will be trained in August in the new curriculum, and then I will be supporting teachers in the classroom.

Some teachers just need-- practically, give me my fast-paced classroom. How am I going to actually make this work? And it's one more thing, and my plate is already too full. And I can't do this. And why am I even doing this in school? This needs to be a parent's job. All of that that is also very real, because teachers' plates are too full, and nobody's taking anything off.

And so, for me, it's also sort of that encouragement of, you are doing this anyway, and you are doing it really well. Let's figure out your personal style. You're already drawn to this work because you engage well with children, and you care about children. Let's springboard off of that and let's grow these pieces in your classroom and make it a fit for you personally, because it makes your classroom better. And it's actually going to really also be responsive to your needs as a person who's showing up for kids.

So it's also caring for teachers in the classroom.

Crystal Cardenas:
That's great to hear, because I do know that-- when I just told the story about Jose and the lunch, I know there's so many people that are like, that's my time. Right? That's a big sacrifice to give up your lunch and to allow that space, especially to just decompress. I have three kids, and I can't imagine being around them all day long.

That's why I'm here in the office without them. And so I do think that it's a big ask, and I completely hear that. But I think there are so many conversations, especially in this work that we do about child abuse and reporting and everything, that everything seems to fall on the shoulders of the teachers. And I think that's a really big ask.

So I also appreciate that as you're talking about this curriculum, you're making it very personal. Because just in the little experience I've had as a parent, I can really see some of these teachers truly being there for the right reasons and wanting to do as much as they can for those parents. And then I also see some that are struggling more. So I love that you're allowing for that space of it looking a little different for everyone in their classrooms.

Rochelle Anderson:
That's the thing, is that teaching is not a one-size-fits-all model. We all have to think about how it is we provide the most and the best for kids, and I think teachers need recognition for that, too.

Crystal Cardenas:
Yeah, absolutely.

OK. So, Jose, speaking of sort of balancing all of that, I wanted to ask you how you balance the demands of teaching full-time. And then not only that, then having a semi-life, personal life, but also-- what was it? How many years ago has it been since you fostered your nieces?

Jose Ocegueda:
I think it'll be five years this month.

So how was that transition. Because I know when the girls first came, the trauma was very apparent. And that's a big shift for them, to go from one household, and a totally different city, to your house. So how did you balance all that?

Jose Ocegueda:
When I got these kids, they had gone through some horrible situation, and they had really nowhere else to go. Or at least nobody was willing to step up. So we took it upon ourselves and said, OK, we got them. And it was a struggle. We have all these rules.

And so what has all these-- as far as behavior and clean and everything else, just what parents have to do. And then what they went-- and therapy's a constant thing. As far as balancing that goes, I really like to keep work at work. So I'll grade everything. I won't come home until everything is done at work. So I just come home and just focus on that and this.

I try to keep it as separate as possible. Obviously, I'm still me, so that won't be there. But, yeah, it is tough. I focus on the kids when I'm here, and then I focus on those kids when I'm there. Of course, demands of everything have to blend a little bit. But, yeah, I definitely try to separate.

I don't talk about work usually at home. I try not to. Unless it's a good thing, then that is fine. But whatever happens at home, I try not to take it to work, either, because they need me for something completely different than who I am. So try to live two worlds, essentially.

[LAUGHTER]

Crystal Cardenas:
So I know you were always trauma-informed. I think even before the term was there, you had that perspective. How did you think--

Jose Ocegueda:
I think [INAUDIBLE] of that.

Crystal Cardenas:
Yeah, I was going to say like, how did you feel like it changed that?

Jose Ocegueda:
Well, at the continuation, all those kids had some. It was different. And they taught me to be a little more sensitive to it than I would have been. I've definitely gotten a lot better at it, a lot better at recognizing it. But it's really mostly the kids.

Even the district now is starting to get through social emotional learning, but it's so little and so-- like the people that get it get it, the people that don't just kind of have to sit through it. You can see the kids. They'll gravitate towards the people that are more sensitive to their needs versus others, and you'll see what they want to hang out who they want to talk to. They feel it. But it's definitely, at least in my district, it's a work in progress.

They're starting to touch them on it, but it's so much bigger than what it is.

Crystal Cardenas: 
Right. And what's funny is that we were talking about it a little bit before because Jose, getting old there, could not figure out the technology. It may or may not have taken him 20 minutes to get on, but we were talking about technology and that impact and the differences in kids. And you had said, Jose, that like COVID really made you get into it and figure it out more. But I'm wondering, as we're talking about social and emotional learning and disregulation, how the technology use is impacting these kids.

When you're on technology at school and at home, and we know that it stimulates so much. So Rochelle, wanted to just get your opinion and take on that.

Rochelle Anderson:
I feel like this is the perfect platform for me to launch onto my soapbox because I have this ongoing conversation with this tribe of teachers that are in my life, friends that I've been teaching with for 25 years, and something is very, very different. And I think I've been-- we, as teachers, have been talking about it And trying to put our finger on it and adjust to it and meet the needs of the kids in a different way and really kind of turn everything that we knew on its head because something is happening.

And I attended CIR's training a Child's Mind on Tech, and I learned a lot. And I feel like I've really kind of gone down the rabbit hole in trying to figure out what this is that we are all seeing. I kind of feel like we're the canary in the coal mine where these teachers are seeing it. And I'm saying kids are not OK. Kids are not OK.

I try and articulate it to my parents during parent-teacher conferences that it's like, let's extend these kids childhoods and protect them as long as we can. But it's really difficult when we're talking about addiction, really. And that's what I've come to learn, is that our saturation in this tech culture is changing everything.

Crystal Cardenas:
Yeah, definitely. Jose, is there anything you want to add as a teacher of a bunch of high schoolers?

Jose Ocegueda:
Yeah. Phones are a constant problem at the high school, but on the converse side, I have some students who will only talk to me through email and it's weird. They only talk to me through email, and they talk to me like they're sending me text messages, and I'm like-- and it's always late, so I never see them until the next morning. I'm like, why are you asking me? They just want a connection. Sometimes, this is our connection, and it's they're trying to send me messages, right?

Nothing usually serious, but they just want a connection. And when they're at their loneliest or feel alone, that's where they reach out. I won't reply until the next morning or whatever, even if I'm like, for them, that is their security blanket. Sometimes they need like-- you see the panic when their phone is dying. It's like a piece of them is dying. So they definitely have to teach them to use it as a tool, but for some people, that's their most valuable possession.

Crystal Cardenas:
It's evolving into the dating. Everyone I'm talking to that are young are-- you're swiping. That's how you're meeting people. They're not talking about going to bars or going to the gym or mean-- well, they are going to the gym, but not for that. Like where the hunting grounds were before are not. They're all in that phone.

Jose Ocegueda:
I've never been a Hunter. I've always been hunted.

Crystal Cardenas:
OK. When you got hunted at 19, it doesn't really count. There was no hunting involved.

Jose Ocegueda:
There's no hunting involved.

Crystal Cardenas:
I have this inspired vision, though, that, to Jose's point, I really love the reminder that we're not going backwards, and we're not going to be able to put this back in the box. So we are going to have to learn how to manage this. And Jose's right. It's like, for a lot of kids, this is a vehicle for something that is connection. And so we're seeing this more and more is that we're going to seek connection however we can.

But I have this vision of our future that if we can get back to some of these humanistic skills and these connection points that we're going to see, where technology falls short on us actually getting the richness of what is personal connection. And so I kind of have this view of if I yell from the soapbox loud enough that people will join me in going back to where Jose started at 19, making that connection and doing that awkward thing where you stand in front of the boy, and you say the thing. Like, I think that that's where joy happens, and real connection happens.

And so we've got to give kids and adults more opportunity to be brave, to be able to hold their space to be able to do that, because I think that is where we're going to find the most fulfillment.

Crystal Cardenas:
Definitely, and I do think, as I was thinking back to that training that we did the Child's Mind on Tech, that a big part of it is Dr. Radesky was talking about teaching parents, but without that shame component because the reality is even me, as the person who knows all about cyber crimes and all that stuff, I will lie when I go to the pediatrician about, of course, they're under two. They never watch a screen. And so I think that parents don't want to admit that they are using it as a soothing tool.

And so how do you have those conversations where they can feel safe enough and not judged enough to be open about it and be vulnerable and say like, I didn't understand that, and so now I'm going to think about it a little bit more. And at least try to have a conscious effort to not use the phone because what I don't do, but I know when you do go and you look around at all these toddlers and young kids, they've got a device sitting in front of them. And that's the parents opportunity to have a conversation and feel that social connection as adults.

And so I think there's got to be like a balance to helping our parents realize that you need that as well. And we're already submerged, especially these younger parents, who already grew up with the technology and are used to it of like, how do you balance using the technology and incorporating that into your life with your kids and also acknowledging that now we know that the technology is not the greatest for us and that these TV shows and the algorithms and all of that are setting up for these high dopamine and this addiction.

So I do think that that's something that we're going to have to explore. Maybe somebody's going to make a TV show about it or something. I don't know.

Jose Ocegueda:
Well, that's the toughest because it has to start. We, as adults, and I'm an old person, was never-- phone etiquette was something you have to learn. And if you grew up like you with a phone since forever, you have to be able to go, OK, this is OK. This is not OK. This is when-- some parents don't know that, therefore their children this and there's people that have extreme views on everything, of course, but LA Unified is banning cell phones.

Crystal Cardenas:
Really?

Jose Ocegueda:
Yeah. Yeah, Gavin Newsom's looking into doing it statewide, but so there is something happening. It's slow, and it might not be enough yet, but at least we're moving in the right direction. I think at least with big education systems, we will get there. It just takes a while.

Rochelle Anderson:
I love that, Jose. And then Crystal, to what you were saying, I think that you're absolutely right. I think that we have to get really practical about these conversations. And I think that I do see a role for teachers, the education system, to be working with families to help this. And I think that I've been dying for this to happen.

I love that LA Unified has banned it. I think that it takes that conflict out of the personal interaction between children and teachers to have that ongoing loop and discussion and conflict point happening, to take it out of the teacher's hands, to then put it on administration, and that it's just this kind of rule that we're adhering to, I think helps it. I think that keeping it in a research-based to your point, Crystal, also helps parents because it takes away that shame. And if we can all acknowledge that this is addictive and that we don't need to think about it any further than that is to just know that the research is telling us that the reason that this is hard as parents and the reason this is harder for kids is because this is an addiction.

And so, what do we want to do when we're talking about creating healthy lifestyles? And then also, I think that there's this parent education opportunity, too, is that in the absence of screens or some of those tools that parents have come to rely on, how do you do it? Parenting is hard, and it is a grind, and it is like moment-to-moment intensity. And so, how do you help parents stick with it and not check out and create communities where we are kind of supporting each other in this really hard work of parenting?

It's the same kind of boots on the ground that teachers take, too. So I think that collaborative thing between parents and teachers for the best interest of kids, I think that that's going to be a really important point as we move forward and kind of common sense media and things like that. There's a lot of different research that's out there that kind of helps guide these conversations. And I'm hoping that more and more, with some of these bans and some of the movement that we're now having in this larger conversation and education policy, trying to acknowledge that this is an issue, I think that we're going to start using some of these tools and some of this information that's already out there to help.

Crystal Cardenas:
Yes, definitely. I feel like we just opened a box, and it's really big and overwhelming and there's a lot of components and who should be doing what and all the problems. But I just wanted to take a second as we near the end of the episode to acknowledge the value of as educators and, especially, two who have the passion and the drive and who are really in it for the kids because I know-- I listen to and read about so many stories of resiliency and I can't even name how many of them start with I had one teacher who saw something in me.

There was this teacher who spent extra time and did this. So I just want to just acknowledge that and thank you both for it and Thank all of the teachers and educators that are listening because you truly make that impact. And I know it has to be so hard to do what you're doing and to balance the act of teaching academics and also caring for the kids in the community. So I just want to thank you for that.

And I also wanted to just ask you to tell us about one story of like, what has kept you in this game or that has made you feel that like a feel-good story. Jose, you're welcome to tell a story of me because I know that I'm a success.

Jose Ocegueda:
That's definitely not a good one. We're also always learning, so it's OK to make mistakes. It's OK to keep going. This job isn't for everyone. You have to be kind of built for it. And if you are, there is a tough slog going through it. But if you're in it for the right reasons or if you're doing it because you really care about these kids, so persevere and keep going through.

And there's a lot of obstacles. I couldn't imagine a new teacher coming in. I try to help them, but it's a lot harder than when I first started, so stick with it.

Crystal Cardenas:
Awesome. Rochelle?

Rochelle Anderson:
Agree. I'd echo that. I think that my best advice would be that the real work that you're doing is not measurable, and so nobody's going to be shoving stats in front of your face telling you that you're doing a good job on this. The data isn't there, and yet it's probably the most important thing that you're doing. And so taking time to focus on what you're doing well might just be something that you have to decide to do for yourself and find your tribe of teachers that help remind you of that, I think really, really helps.

I think that also some of the self-care language that we talk about for teachers is kind of it hits me wrong a lot. I think that you got to do whatever it is you need to do. And for me, it's been really important to somatically, like physically have an outlet for this and to do whatever it is that helps your body stay there present for kids. I think that it's a really big deal. So whatever it is that's filling you up to not feel that guilt or feel torn about what it is you do for yourself. I think that that's really important.

Crystal Cardenas:
Yes, thank you. And thank you both for the work that you do. Thank you for joining us today, and thank you for continuing to inspire our youth.

Jose Ocegueda:
Thanks.

Rochelle Anderson:
Crystal, thanks for this opportunity. Jose, I'm inspired. I love the conversation with you.

Jose Ocegueda:
Yeah, I'd like to meet you in person someday. That'd be great.

Rochelle Anderson:
Me too.

We're just. I'm going to take him through elementary, and then going to hand him off to you. If we could just do that, we'd be running our own school.

Jose Ocegueda:
I know.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Thank you so much for listening to another episode of Remember Why You're Here, to access the transcript for this episode and to learn more about what we do at CIR, please visit our website at cirinc.org. Until next time.