RWYH 9

Episode 9 Transcript

Protecting our Elders from Cybercrimes ft. Tracy Webb

Episode Transcript

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Tracy Webb:
You know what, trust people. People are basically good. Trust, but verify.

Aimee Hanna:
Welcome to Remember Why You're Here, a podcast created by the Center for Innovation and Resources, where we host conversations with experts in the field about what started their journey to do work around abuse and healing. CIR is a small nonprofit with big goals.

We organize events, aimed to fulfill our vision that all professionals who serve children, families, and communities will have the knowledge, skills, and training to act in a holistic and culturally responsive manner. To see more of what we do visit, cirinc.org.

Crystal Cardenas:
Tracy Webb is a seasoned career prosecutor with 39 years of experience and has been a dedicated advocate for justice, specializing in prosecuting crimes against children, family violence, and cybercrime. Notably, she served as a key member of the Federal Internet Crimes Against Children Task Force and is currently the co-chair of the Los Angeles County Cybercrime Task Force.

Tracy's impact extends beyond the courtroom. She is also an Emmy-award winning producer of a documentary on gang violence and a renowned speaker on topics such as cybercrime, human trafficking, and child exploitation. Thank you so much, Tracy, for being on today.

I feel like it's a full circle moment for me, especially considering that I met you-- you were one of the first trainers that I ever worked with when I first started at CIR, which was 11 years ago. And it feels so great to be working together and to hopefully not seem as rookie-ish as I was. When I first started--

Tracy webb:
You were not rookie-ish at all.

Crystal Cardenas:
Thank you. I appreciate that. I appreciate you lying to our listeners as well. All right, so let's get started. Take us through your career path and what led you to where you are now.

Tracy Webb:
Well, obviously, I'm a criminal prosecutor, spent 38-plus years as a criminal prosecutor.

And so when somebody hears that term or that job title, it could mean any number of things. And of course, as a rookie-- speaking of rookies-- I started out prosecuting every type of crime you can imagine, but I gradually gravitated towards crimes against children and family violence cases.

Because my background is in education, so I really liked teaching. I really liked children. I really liked working with children and other people in vulnerable populations. And so, it was sort of a natural fit for me. And actually, I tripped into my very first case involving children.

Because somebody had a trial that they'd been prepping for a long time, and they couldn't do it at the last minute. And so it got handed off to me to do the trial. And I happened to be eight months pregnant at the time.

Crystal Cardenas:
Oh, wow.

And so, I did the trial, lasted maybe a week. So I got a conviction. And I was convinced that a jury was going to just convict somebody when the prosecutor was eight months pregnant because how could they not believe this giant woman in front of them?

So of course, my boss probably thought the same thing, so I did two more trials before my daughter was born. And she was born early. So I went on maternity leave. When I came back, of course, the first thing they said to me is, "Do you to go to the Family Violence Unit?"

And so that kicked off my work with all different types of family violence type cases, whether it was child abuse, whether it was domestic violence, whether it was elder abuse or a combination thereof. So I did that for a couple of years, did a lot of high profile type cases, dabbled, believe it or not, in some of the priest abuse cases with the Catholic Church. I did the first prosecution in LA County of a Catholic priest.

Crystal Cardenas:
Wow.

Tracy Webb:
But I liked the challenge of it, and I liked-- the thing I wanted in my career and ended up achieving was having every day be different and having the challenge of working with a vulnerable population, doing good work that ended up being justice and the right thing to do, and then also having fun doing it.

And so check all those boxes. So I did that for about nine years, then I left LA, and I ended up being the chief prosecutor in Pasadena for almost eight years. I still was able to maintain my focus on family violence type cases while I was in Pasadena.

Then I left, went back to the big city, continued working family violence cases, ended up being director of Family Violence Policy, Child Abuse Policy, primarily. As a family violence prosecutor, we started seeing these brand new crimes that we'd never seen before, and they were crimes using technology.

Because the internet exploded into all of our lives. And so we had the challenge in the federal code and federal court or in the penal code in California, having to prosecute this whole new crop of crimes and draft the laws at the same time. And coupled with that, the piece about educating the public about internet crimes.

Because people, what do you mean internet crimes? We don't even really know what the internet is. And so we all learned together. I ended up working in a federal task force. And part of that was the education piece. Part of it was the legislative piece to draft the new laws or amend the laws that were already on the books and also prosecute the crimes either in federal court or in state court.

So it was a weird-- I mean, if somebody had told me at the beginning of my career that I'd be doing technology-facilitated crimes, I would have said you're cuckoo, because I don't even know what that means. I was lucky if I knew how to put the VCR tape in the machine. And we don't have VCR tapes anymore.

We all learned together. Everybody on the task force worked the crimes as best we could and got actually pretty good at it. I really gravitated towards the educational piece, because I loved going out into the community. And that's when you entered my life.

Crystal Cardenas:
Yes.

Tracy Webb:
We entered in each other's lives because we needed to teach the community. We needed to teach parents. We needed to teach caregivers. We needed to teach kids. We needed to teach seniors. We needed to teach senior caregivers. And it was basically teach the world as much as we could.

And it's still an ongoing process. Because, as much as we go out there and as much as we talk about it and as much s we teach, still, people don't necessarily get it. So in a short nutshell, that's how my career proceeded.

Crystal Cardenas:
You said, "I was eight months pregnant, and I took on my first cases." And then you came back from maternity leave, and then you went right back into it. So how do you think it affected you as a parent? Did you parent differently? Was there a shift that you had to go through?

Tracy Webb:
I don't want to say too much, but I knew more than most parents know. About how dangerous the world is, but I-- because I knew it, and I think a little bit rational about it-- and I do think it's important in my line of work to have friends that are not in your line of work so that they have a different perspective than you do.

But I think I really, at an early age, had to guard against not overprotecting my kids or scaring them about the world, which doesn't mean, in my head, I wasn't thinking about it. And also, remember, for me, thank goodness, my kids grew up before the internet and social media turned into what it is.

Crystal Cardenas:
When we first started, you were teaching kids and schools about safety. When did you start to do elderly and why?

Tracy Webb:
Such a good question. Yeah, I started with putting together a program, where we were trying to teach parents, educators, and the kids all the same thing so that everybody was on the same page. And I think one of the things that made me expand the reach was the realization that a lot of the kids we were teaching were being either raised or taken care of by their grandparents.

And so, oftentimes, grandparents or parents, the way they care for their kids is, let them be on a tablet, or let them be on the iPad through no fault of their own. That's what kids want to do. That's where they do their homework. That's where they interact friends. That's where they play games.

It was like something clicked with me and with my team that was like, you know what, that's a part of the population that we need to be addressing. And at the same time at work, the person who was handling the elder abuse cases retired. And so my boss said to me, do you want to take that on at the same time?

And I said, sure. And it was a transition that made a lot of sense. Because if we're going to educate the community, to educate the whole community wasn't just educators and kids and parents, but it was broader than that. It was grandparents and caregivers. And then we expanded it to retirement homes and senior centers and things like that.

And what I realized when I did the first few elder fraud trainings, I'd do the whole thing, and I was sort of talking to a room full of people who were care givers and seniors. And I could tell from their faces that they were like, what on Earth are you talking about? I have no idea. Are you kidding me? And then sort of fearful--

Crystal Cardenas:
Yes.

Tracy Webb:
--that's going to happen, which was similar to, we're never try to scare kids or scare parents, but be based in reality for sure. And then I noticed, after the first couple of trainings I did at the senior centers was, I would have-- the people come up and ask me questions afterwards. And a lot of them would be seniors, and they would bring like, my granddaughter bought me this, and I don't know what it is. Can you help me use it? And it would be like a Kindle or which-- perfect.

Give them a Kindle, but teach them how to use it, or a tablet, or an iPhone, so that they could-- or an Android phone so that they could keep in touch with the family and things like that. And cute sweetheart of a lady said, they keep telling me to FaceTime. And she was touching her face. And she didn't know what FaceTime was. And so it broadened how we don't just give them the technology.

Teach them how to use it and teach them how to use it safely, which means that pretty much the same thing we're saying to kids is, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. And if you don't know who you're talking to, you don't know who you're talking to. And I'll tell you, Crystal, it's only gotten worse from there, because there's so many scams out there, specifically targeting that elder population.

Crystal Cardenas:
I think, for me, what has been so eye-opening-- I don't know if I've just have been naive or if we're all sort of that way, it's that shift of going from our parents are the ones who taught us everything. And so I just assume that my parents are going to have this judgment to the level that I have, right?

And then seeing them navigate technology or even text messages for my mom. So many times, she'll get those like scam Amazon, like you're tracking order is here, and she doesn't even have an Amazon account. She's ready to click and do whatever because she got this text message, right?

And so I think, for me, one of the hardest parts of navigating is how to have the conversation with my parents when I feel like they're not using that critical judgment and not sound like I'm reprimanding them or being disrespectful. So how do you think it's best to describe the dangers, or how do you do that?

Tracy Webb:
It's such a good question because it's such a different dynamic. As parents and was a parent or even as educators, we have a different level of authority. But when it comes to our parents or even other people's parents or our elders, there's this level of respect that we were raised with that we're expected to have.

And you don't want to violate that. But at the same time, you want to protect them. And so the tack that I tend to take-- and it doesn't work for everybody-- is you're not going to believe what I learned. You know what I mean? You're not fully, I went and did this training today, or I read this article today, or I was talking to this friend of mine.

You're not going to believe what I heard. And it's almost like when you came home in third grade and said, I learned something today. It's a little tiny bit manipulative, but it's still respecting that level of authority that we have for and with our parents.

Crystal Cardenas:
Oh, I love that because, yeah. I mean, if I even try to come off a little bit like, you don't understand-- because I've had those conversations with my parents about YouTube and my daughter. And then they're like, she's fine. She's watching. I'm like, you don't understand what YouTube really is.

You don't understand the algorithms. she could be fine right now. And in an hour and a half, she's down a different rabbit hole because you trusted it, and there's a communication piece to YouTube that you don't understand. And so, my parents instantly get on edge.

Tracy Webb:
It's frustrating, and it's scary, especially when it comes to the financial crimes and the financial issues. Because the scammers are so smart. And I used to-- when I used to talk about scammers, I used to say scammers are so smart when they're dealing with children, because they're very adept at child development.

They're very adept at what the cool music is, what the cool apps are, what the kids are doing, what they're interested in, what TV shows they watch, what movies they like, what music they listen to. And they play into that so that they can pretend to be their age or whatever they do.

We take a little bit of a different turn with the seniors, because while the scammers are very adept, they are very educated. These are not dumb people who are committing these scams. They're very sophisticated people, and they know how to tap into those vulnerabilities of elders.

And I mean, one of the best examples I heard was, directly from a scammer that we ended up arresting, was that most seniors, not all, but most seniors, are very protective of their money. They only have a limited amount of money. They're probably retired. They don't know how long they're going to live, and they want to make sure they have enough money to live, just like the rest of us, right?

Crystal Cardenas:
Right.

Tracy Webb:
And so they prey on that, and they prey on it saying, I want to help you protect your money and make even more. And because we're all human, that's great. If you go to a financial planner, and you trust them, and they come highly recommended. And they say, here's what we're going to do to maintain and raise your portfolio, you trust them.

Well, a different generation of people, the generation that we're raising right now, your kids, are very adept at technology. They're very good at it. They know more than most of us do. And so with seniors, we just have to stress to them, guess what's new, and guess what's out there, and guess what I learned, like I said.

And one of the suggestions when we branched into training on elder fraud and elder abuse was one of the phrases we use with kids that we coined was the-- name of the program was Now Matters Later to get into kids' heads that what they post online and do online now is going to matter later in their lives.

Crystal Cardenas:
Right.

Tracy Webb:
And so somebody said, well, let's put together this elder training. We'll just use the same Now Matters Later. And I said, no offense, but that isn't going to work for that population, because now matters now. If somebody's saying, hey, I need you to wire $1,000, so I'm going to wire you back $10,000, that's not later. That's right now.

Crystal Cardenas:
Right.

Tracy Webb:
And we realized that we need to make it very time specific, and we also needed to train a lot broader, a different kind of population. So we needed to train Uber drivers and taxi drivers and bank tellers and people like that, who might come in contact with elders who are going to withdraw money.

I mean, I cannot tell you the success we've had with Uber and Lyft drivers. And the Uber drivers now know the questions to ask-- oh, what are you going to do at the bank? Are you making a deposit? Just not trying to pry, but trying-- and lots of elders are looking forward to talking to other people.

Crystal Cardenas:
Right.

Tracy Webb:
And then they to make that call. And we've had lots and lots of Uber drivers meet black and white in front of Bank of America, and then they tag it to the police officers who then to try and deter whatever's about to happen successfully.

Crystal Cardenas:
Oh, I love that so much.

Tracy Webb:
So it's really-- it takes a village. It really goes back to, if you see something, say something. As cheesy as it now sounds, but everybody's involved in protecting. I mean, we did a training for Trader Joe's employees and Target employees because they go and buy gift cards.

Crystal Cardenas:
Right.

Tracy Webb:
If they're buying more than one or two gift cards, and obviously, there's leeway when it's Christmas time and things like that, there's some questions that they can ask. And sometimes, we're successful, and sometimes we're not.

Crystal Cardenas:
One of the things that has really made me sad-- and I know it's not everybody, but I do feel like there has been a shift in how we view the elder population. I know in Indigenous communities, they still really highly value their elders. And right now, my dad has gone in and out of skilled nursing facilities. So I've seen a lot of it. There's this shift or a lot of people don't see the value of the elder community once they've hit that retirement.

Tracy Webb:
I think COVID had a lot to do with it, the isolation that we all felt during COVID. But the seniors who were apart from their families and apart from their grandchildren and apart from their children for a long period of time, a year plus.

But I think it had a greater effect because it was such a drastic change from their long fruitful, hopefully, love-filled lives. And so I do think there has been a shift, but I think that the level of criminal intent has also risen so dramatically that it highlights it.

Crystal Cardenas:
Yeah, that makes sense.

Tracy Webb:
And then you and I, and hopefully many of your listeners, see that other cultures and other communities have such a greater level of respect for their elders, especially when you keep going back to COVID, but when you saw the level of COVID cases in nursing facilities, in elder facilities, and it was like we put so much emphasis on schools and kids.

Crystal Cardenas:
Right.

Tracy Webb:
And why is this such a problem? And I know that they're much more vulnerable. But, yeah, they're much more vulnerable. Take care of them. And why weren't they at the top of our list? And I think that has an effect, not only on the elders, but on the community at large, because they saw that with our government.

Crystal Cardenas:
Sometimes, I feel like how do I get them to empower themselves a little bit more?

Tracy Webb:
To ask without shaming them.

Crystal Cardenas:
Yes, exactly. Yeah, without shaming them.

Tracy Webb:
And I think another thing going back to your original question, and that question that I utilized that seems to work, not necessarily with kids, but with the older population is this idea of-- and however you explain it to them based on the relationship-- is trust. You know what, trust people.

People are basically good. Trust, but verify. Sounds too good to be true. Let's check it out. If you're not quite sure or it doesn't feel right, or you got that gut feeling, or oh, is my son or daughter going to be upset with me if I do this? Trust the person.

Say, hey, you're a great person. I really appreciate the information. Let me ask a few questions, and let me get back to you. So trust, but verify. And that works. It doesn't work with everybody, but it's one that works, depending on the relationship that you have.

Crystal Cardenas:
Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about what you've seen with individuals who have dementia or who have the early onset, right? Because I feel s for us, it took us years to see my dad, like the signs of the dementia. And I just feel like that's when it's so scary because he is more vulnerable to. Even with Facebook, I'm constantly-- I have to put controls, parental controls.

Tracy Webb:
Well, I mean, that's one of the reasons they're there. And one of the reasons that the social media platforms have altered those parental controls because they've now included and realized that, sometimes, it's not parents with children but children with parents. And you do have to do those either, not necessarily limiting the time they're on the device, but places they can go and things that they can do.

Crystal Cardenas:
What are some of the controls that work for children and for our parents that we can do to protect them or help them be less vulnerable?

Tracy Webb:
Most websites, most social media platforms have put in place, long ago, parental controls for children. And what we've realized is the same ones can work for our parents or grandparents or whoever it happens to be. And so it's just a matter of paying really close attention to where they're going and what they're doing.

And one of the things I recommend to caregivers and/or children who are caring for older parents or grandparents is making it a practice of checking the history because it's really easy to check the history. And that'll give you incredible insight. It works for kids, too.

And so, good example we had recently was lots and lots of phone calls and attempts on the tablet to get to Verizon, because they got one of those text messages that says upgrade your Verizon phone for free. And they thought, oh, good, I'm going to save some money.

And I'm going to get a better phone, and maybe I'll be able to talk to my grandchildren easier and faster because I can do that FaceTime thing. And it gives, whoever's checking the kids or the caregivers, really good insight into where they're going.

They got a phone call, and then they signed into their bank account, also something that happens all the time. They get a phone call, or they clicked on something on a text message that connected a call. And then the person said, hey, let's go on to your Wells Fargo account-- true story-- and all you have to do is click here and transfer it to an external account.

And literally walked them through how to add an external account, verify the external account, and then transfer that money, not to a higher interest a savings, which the senior citizen understood, but rather the bad guy's account, offshore account.

And so, we see people losing thousands and hundreds of thousands of dollars in a lot of these different scams, where it could have been prevented if somebody was paying a little bit closer attention. And I mean, granted it would be a full time job-- I'm sure you know with your dad-- to monitor where he's going on the tablet or where he's going on his phone.

But it's the best way to do it because it gives us insight into where they're going and what they're doing now. There are safety factors that are in the parental controls or in software for parental controls that you can buy, where it'll monitor the keystrokes, and it'll notify you what the keystrokes are or if certain websites are being accessed.

Crystal Cardenas:
Right. And that is what I have figured out. I cursed the internet sometimes because my parents, they want to stay hip and happening, and so they want the latest and the greatest without really understanding what the dangers are.

Tracy Webb:
You know, AARP, they have something called Fraud Watch. They have teletown halls, where it's basically like a radio show, really geared to that senior population. And they have a lot of really good, very senior-friendly, senior-minded educational opportunities. It's really good quality education for that particular population. So just some food for thought.

Crystal Cardenas:
Thank you. I appreciate that. If you're in the era that I am, which is caring for little ones and caring for elder parents. It's really difficult, and it's really hard on the soul to see your parents be so vulnerable and to walk this line of being respectful but also being assertive. At this point, I'm like, I would rather them not know how scary the world is.

Tracy Webb:
I think you can to an extent. Because I think, if you're willing and other people are willing to take on that little extra task-- and I know you don't have one extra minute in the day because, really, none of us do. But when you're talking about their life savings, money's important to all of us.

But money's really important when you feel like you don't know how long you're going to have to make it last. And that's what these scammers, when they're talking, and we're talking about elder fraud. The scammers, they're after money, hundreds of thousands of dollars just gone, houses where they go in, and claim the house or transfer the deed to somebody.

And they literally lose the house that they live in, because they trusted this person. And so when you think about it that way with yourself and your peers and the people who are listening to this, it almost makes it feel like the extra effort of checking their history and monitoring their usage is worth it.

Because if that happens, what you and I would say is, oh, I wish I had done that. I wish I had taken that extra 15 minutes and just check the history. Because you probably see your dad as much as you possibly can. So while we're there, having a conversation, click on History.

And you and I both know, It doesn't take very long to just look at it. It's part of the, hey, what's going on, what's new conversation. And they don't even necessarily have to know you're doing it.

Crystal Cardenas:
I can't even imagine the impact that has on you to see so many vulnerable children, adults, and people get abused, either through the internet or when you were doing the other work. So can you tell me a little bit about how that affected you personally when you were working those crimes?

Tracy Webb:
I learned at a very early time in my career to leave work at work. And sometimes, I had to fight it. Because I've got some time after the kids go to sleep that I can work on it, but I really held fast to advice I got from a very wise mentor of mine. Leave work at work, and leave home at home.

And we all know we're humans, and things overlap sometimes. But it's heady stuff. And most of the people that do what I do realize after a couple of years of doing it that they're either burnt out, or they can't handle it anymore, and they move on.

And some people, like me, stick with it for a really long time. And I think a lot of that was just sort of a dedication I had to the vulnerability of the people I was dealing with and the incredible amount of satisfaction I got at helping them. It fuels you, and it fueled me anyway.

Crystal Cardenas:
And I also love that you acknowledge that not everybody can do it, right? That there are people that 2 to 3 years and they're out. And I think that is OK.

Tracy Webb:
It's OK to not be OK, and you get OK by acknowledging that.

Crystal Cardenas:
So my last question that I like to leave our listeners with is, if you could give one piece of advice to professionals who are just starting their career, so what advice would that be to new prosecutors?

Tracy Webb:
Well, that is such a wonderful question. What comes to mind as the best piece of advice is to talk to people and communicate with people, your colleagues, those who have come before you, whose shoulders you stand on, if you will. But talk to people and learn from people, and be open to networking, to taking the advice of other people.

Don't be afraid to ask questions. I learned early on that if you don't ask any questions, you don't learn. And be open to the fact that you want to learn from the people who are surrounding you, your peers and others, and then be willing to pass that on to those that come after you.

Every single one of us, when we wake up in the morning, is still learning. And none of us know it all, and none of us will ever know it all. And so the more we can tap in to learning from other people-- because everybody has a different perspective. Everybody has a different way of doing things.

You're going to find your own way and find your own method of doing things, but you can always learn from other people, and we can always learn. So don't be afraid to learn and, hopefully, learning something every single day, multiple things.

Crystal Cardenas:
Oh, that's great advice. Thank you. And it's a perfect segue into, if you'd like to learn more about Tracy, you can visit our website. Tracy is a fabulous speaker. If you loved her now, just wait till you see her in person. And you can see all the different topics that Tracy presents on. So thank you so much, Tracy, for your time.

Tracy Webb:
Thank you for having me. It was fun.

Aimee Hanna:
Thank you so much for listening to another episode of Remember Why You're Here. To access the transcript for this episode and to learn more about what we do at CIR, please visit our website at cirinc.org. Until next time.

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More on Tracy Webb here. Or visit: https://cirinc.org/what-we-do/featured-speakers.html 

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