Episode 6 Transcript
Spirituality's Role in Trauma Recovery ft. Dr Gimel Rogers and Dr. Jocelyn Wormley
Episode Show Notes:
We're back for part II or our pre-conference promotion series. In this episode, we get into a lively and invigorating conversation with our two other presenters, Dr. Gimel Rogers and Dr. Jocelyn Wormley. In this episode, these two powerful women discuss the curse of poverty, the importance of addressing family strengths in child abuse reports, and recognizing religion's hand in abuse and spirituality's role in recovering.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Dr. Gimel Rogers:
Don't be afraid to chart and territories that may be uncomfortable.
Dr. Joycelyn Wormley:
We have to acknowledge the intersectionality of healing.
Crystal Cardenas:
Dr. Gimel Rogers is a licensed psychologist and is board certified in clinical psychology from the American Board of Professional Psychology. She earned her doctorate from Pepperdine University. She is an expert witness and assist clients who are involved in criminal, family, and civil cases involving a broad range of forensic issues.
She is faculty and the Associate Director of the online MACLP program at Pepperdine University. Additionally, Dr. Rogers presently works with survivors who are recovering from emotional, physical, and sexual abuse. She utilizes an array of therapeutic interventions, with an emphasis on cognitive behavioral therapy. She has published in the areas of culture, coping, spirituality and trauma.
Dr. Joycelyn Wormley is a forensic interview specialist, CPS social worker, and lecturer at California State University Sacramento. She specializes in child welfare services, and has spent more than a decade working with children, youth, and families in diverse communities. She received a Bachelor of Arts in psychology from the University of California, Merced, a master of social work degree from California State University, Sacramento, and a doctorate in social work from the University of Southern California.
Crystal Cardenas:
Welcome and thank you so much Dr. Rogers and Dr. Wormley for joining us today. I'm so excited to have you both on. It is truly an honor to work with you and to just hear the passion behind both of your work as you present and as you talk about all the work that you've done in the past. So what I want to do is to just kick off by asking for you to both tell us about the kind of work you do around child abuse and healing. So let's start with Dr. Rogers.
Dr. Gimel Rogers:
So in terms of the current work I do around child abuse, I am a clinical and forensic psychologist and so clinically I see individuals in my practice in terms of persons who have reported that they have experienced child abuse or any, really, form of trauma in that regard, and as well as in my forensic evaluation.
Sometimes the evaluations are specific to family violence or child welfare services if a child has been taken away from their parent. And then looking at treatment planning and assessing for child abuse. And so primarily right now currently, I mainly do assessments and evaluations for child abuse and some treatment. And I have done some research as it relates to child abuse.
Crystal Cardenas:
Dr. Wormley, will you tell us a little bit about what you do?
Dr. Joycelyn Wormley:
So I am a forensic interview specialist where I work with the County of Sacramento, interviewing children that are victims of crime. Most of the crimes in which children are victims it's sexual abuse, physical abuse, witnesses to a homicide, witnessing domestic violence. Sometimes they have witnessed things with firearms, and drugs and children. They have to be spoken to in a way that's very nurturing and developmentally on target.
And these questions have to be forensically sound to stand the test of a trial. And so I'm a forensic interview specialist where I just take that time to talk to them about what they saw, what they heard, and what they experienced. In addition to that, I work in child abuse where I encourage mandated reporters to include strengths in their child abuse reports.
Crystal Cardenas:
On the topic of training because that's what we do-- at CIR, that's our biggest focus-- what inspired you, Dr. Wormley, to start training, to continue training to focus on the strength-based training?
Dr. Joycelyn Wormley:
So for me, it started out because I realized when I was in emergency response where you investigate child abuse. And I worked in emergency response for about three and 1/2 years. But it only took me about six months to be very frustrated, very angry. And I had a teacher that told me, pay attention to what angers you.
And so what was making me so angry is that the children that were being removed, a lot of the times we were missing information. And a lot of the information that we were missing was on things that were working well. We would find out in the investigation the things that were working well, but it was sometimes weeks later as we have already started the investigation. Children have already been removed we find these things out, oh, there's a neighbor, oh, there's this person, oh, mom has evidence of this, mom has evidence of that.
And a mandated reporter who let us know of the concerns sometimes knew about these things that were going on. A lot of the times they knew. And it's like, well, why didn't you tell us at the time? Well, no one asked. And then for the ones that didn't know, it was like, well, they asked me what's working well and I didn't know-- I didn't know what was working well because I hadn't actually looked into it.
And so I started to get very frustrated with the way in which removals were happening where I felt people were just uninformed. Parents, you can make arrangements for your kids. A lot of the children are removed because of failure to make arrangements, parents locked up or there's situations with poverty. And the system is saying, parent, go to make arrangements. These children are at risk. Let's take them in.
And it's like, are we letting people know that they can make arrangements? And so I decided, while I was working in emergency response, to get my doctorate degree. And I got my doctor of social work degree and focused on child welfare. And focused on improving the systems through policy reform.
And through that process, I developed strengh-based reporting and which I said, I was going to train people because no one else is doing it. We have the standard mandated reporting training but I said I wanted to train people on identifying protective capacities at the level of mandated reporter.
Social workers we know to do that but a lot of mandated reporters are not social workers. They are educators, medical people, counselors, people that are just doing really good work with children but they're not social workers. And so I just wanted to let people know that you can report the good stuff.
No one's saying to not report the bad stuff but like I said, it's just angered me so much I wanted to do something about it. And now I have been training on strength-based reporting just for about a year and a half now and it's just been amazing thing.
Crystal Cardenas:
Dr. Rogers?
Dr. Gimel Rogers:
And I just want to add because Dr. Wormley kicked this off in my mind as well, I do trainings for other professionals specifically around racism and child welfare services, and how ethnically diverse children and adolescents are taken away and not replaced back with their families at the same rates as white children.
And talking about different forms of child abuse, how it can present, and being culturally informed and culturally sensitive when you're assessing for child abuse in the home. And so that's particularly to social workers as well as other mental health professionals when I conduct those trainings.
I love teaching, and so knowing the power of leading and advocating and teaching and training and educating so people can make informed decisions because if you don't know something, how can you make an informed decision?
And some people plead ignorance when they do know but some people really just don't know because nobody's told them. And so training and providing that information in various spaces, from the church to the community to the school setting is utmost important.
And so that's what got me into training is because when I realized that some people make mistakes because they just don't know better because nobody's ever trained them or told them, then I feel like that's a part of my job, a part of my purpose, a part of my vocation to help others in that regard.
Dr. Joycelyn Wormley:
What you said, Dr. Rogers, just really resonated with me because I feel the same way. It's like when people are uninformed and they can't make informed decisions, then it's like, how do I have the knowledge and the know how and I'm just sitting on it? Like, how does that make the world better?
And so it's sometimes feel it is my calling to educate and inform and advocate and just let people know so they can make better choices for their children, for their families, and that outcomes will be better. And you ever hear-- people will always say, social work is a calling, it is a way of life, and, yes, it is. We all have to feel empowered. And, yes, it just feels amazing to feel understood in this space.
Crystal Cardenas:
I love that. Sometimes I feel like there is a lot of assumptions about certain cultures, poverty in general. So I want to talk with both of you a little bit about that because I think it's something that if it's not right in your face, I see people hesitate to ask. So I just would love to hear your input on that.
Dr. Joycelyn Wormley:
So one of the things I've noticed is that people think that when you're living in poverty and that those that are in poverty have somehow chosen it and are not hard workers. One thing I was talking to my husband about this morning is being in poverty is expensive.
Being in poverty is expensive. We have higher interest rates. And I'm saying we because I can say maybe I'm a poverty survivor and I'm currently breaking the generational curse of poverty. Currently just closed on my second home, and lived in a family of, unfortunately, homelessness and a lot of unstable things in my past. And I've been able to share that experience with my mom and my grandma, things like that.
But, anyways, reflecting on the idea that poverty is expensive, higher interest rates, when you're always paying your first, your last, and the deposit, when you're constantly having to pay more because people don't trust you and you don't have good credit, when you're constantly working more hours, you have less time, your time is your most valuable resource.
Being in poverty is expensive. And I think people think it's glamorous because you're living on someone else's dime because you have someone else's money and all these other things, and that's not true because when you're in poverty also there is a ceiling to which you can get help.
And once you cross that ceiling, all of a sudden you get that gray area. You're not rich you're not poor. So sometimes it's safer to stay poor. You know what I mean? Sometime it's safer. And so I don't know, I think one of the assumptions that people make is that people enjoy living on someone else's dime, and that's not true.
Crystal Cardenas:
Dr. Rogers, what do you have to add? I could see you nodding.
Dr. Gimel Rogers:
Because when she was speaking, it just reminded me of the power and control wheel of historical trauma that I created.
Crystal Cardenas:
And we have available on CIR's website so shout out to Dr. Rogers for doing that. And you can email us at CIR and you can request physical copies of them.
Dr. Gimel Rogers:
I appreciate that. And shout out to CIR for retaining me to be the content expert to create that power and control wheel of historical trauma. And one of the areas that I spoke about when I did the peer reviewed chapter on the power and control wheel of historical trauma with Dr. Brian, is the fact of the poverty cycle when we look at economic abuse and how there are more check cashing places in lower socioeconomic areas that have higher interest rates and less banks.
When there are more corner stores and gas stations than there are grocery stores. And then you're saying, well, what type of food should I purchase? And you have limited amount of food that you can choose from that has a high sugar content that then affects the learning of the children that go to the school, and then they get put out of school, and then it's just a vicious cycle.
When you also want to look at property tax and how property taxes feed into the educational system and the resources in the educational system-- I mean, I can just go on and on. And when she was talking I said, yes, ma'am, that's is the research. And not only is that the research, that is lived experiences for many individuals.
The hard part about this is when somebody has been through trauma, such as poverty because poverty does produce a certain type of trauma, they can have a poverty mindset. Which means they could be the type of person to get on the treadmill and start running and still have a heart attack because they're working so hard because they're so afraid to go back to poverty.
Because they're so afraid of people thinking that they're using the system, or they're so afraid of even wanting to get help or utilize resources because they want to present a certain way. And so, really, it is such a vicious cycle that when people don't understand the true ramifications, when people don't understand the systemic and systemic oppression, the laws that are put in place, the ideologies that are in certain agencies who create these laws.
And they just merely want to victim blame and victim shame and saying you want to live this way, that's a problem. At the same time, because as a forensic psychologist, you have to look at the full picture, argue both sides. The other side is you will run into some people that are lazy. You will run into some people that abuse the system.
And at the same time, how many corporations abuse the system because they know the loopholes, because they hire CPAs who know the loopholes. They don't pay the taxes and they have the money. So you can get it on both sides. You can get it on the low SES, high SES. But if we're going to have a real conversation, the only people that are degraded, disrespected, and demean are people who don't have access to resources.
Dr. Jocelyn Wormley:
Poverty is like a curse almost. You know what I mean? And we have the two sides that abuse the system, but the only people that are criminals are the ones that can't afford representation, the ones that can't afford bail. The ones that just-- literally if you're in The Titanic, you're in the bottom of the ship, you're going to sink first.
But if you're on the top and you can afford representation, of a sudden your crime to be, oh, we considered. And I don't want to get political, but we have people running for office who are criminals, but you cannot be a criminal and apply for McDonald's. You can't be a criminal and apply to work at Bank of America because you have a record. Unless you have enough money, you can buy votes all of a sudden. So--
Dr. Gimel Rogers:
Can I just say, Dr Wormley, I am so excited for the conference in January. We are going to shut it down at the pre-conference in San Diego. It's going to be a great time so I just want to put a little plug in here. Definitely purchase your tickets, definitely come to the conference. Come get all this knowledge that we have to give in person. It's going to be a fantastic Saturday.
Crystal Cardenas:
Absolutely. And in sunny San Diego. I wanted to talk-- and Dr Wormley, you're welcome to jump in. But I wanted to ask Dr Rogers about spirituality because that is something that you're going to be talking about in the conference. And how you're seeing that, and how as providers they should consider spirituality when we're working on a treat-- on treating clients and helping in clients work through trauma.
Dr. Gimel Rogers:
Before I answer that, I want to speak to why people don't even want to acknowledge or address spirituality and religion in an intake or as a part of resiliency factors. Even though most checklists now include it, there's still this form of resistance or they-- especially if an individual does not have their own identity around spirituality or religion, I see it in my trainees, they may struggle with asking the question of, do you have beliefs? Or what are your cultural practices?
So that's something that we're definitely going to dive into a little bit more about this resistance and how if you-- once were religious or spiritual and you suffered spiritual abuse and you're still trying to help others, how you can work through some of your own stuff to still get the information you need to have a culturally sensitive trauma informed treatment plan.
And so to your point, spirituality and religion, first I just want to briefly define the two. Religion is a construct usually about different denominations or different sectors of religion. And some religion have a cultural component. So, for example, I have a friend who identifies as a Jew taboo. Culturally she's Jewish, religiously she's Buddhist.
And understanding the difference between culture and religion and how that actually impacts an individual versus another friend who identifies as Jewish both culturally and religiously. And we won't know that unless we ask the question.
And then the spiritual component, a lot of people nowadays say that they're spiritual. Well, what does that mean? Because it means something different for everybody and getting to the bottom line of what that means. And a lot of people have-- went away from different structured religions because of humans. Humans are flawed.
And so when we look at how spirituality and religion can actually play a role as both a protective factor and a risk factor in somebody, we won't know unless we ask the question. So that's the first step of just getting comfortable asking the question and how can we facilitate dialogue so we know when we're placing a child with a family how that might actually impact the child.
When we're talking about abuse and exploring with the child if they've ever felt spiritually abused, if they've ever felt the religion was used to justify corporal punishment, if they ever felt their religion was used to justify child sexual abuse, if they ever felt their religion was used to justify emotional abuse and violence.
And so that is some of the things that we're going to talk about. Don't be afraid to chart in territories that may be uncomfortable whether due to your own past and your own experiences that you may still need to work through.
Or whether just due to your own belief if you think it's unimportant, it may be unimportant to you but we have to focus on the individual. My portion of the presentation, I do want it to be healing. And my hope, my prayer, and my goal is that in that presentation, people can come to some understanding of humanity and divinity.
Crystal Cardenas:
Dr. Wormley?
Dr. Joycelyn Wormley:
We have to acknowledge the intersectionality of healing. Spirituality is one of-- don't want to say one of the most important, but in my opinion, is an important part of that intersect where we have church and spirituality and we have therapy, we have friendship, we have reflection. I mean, healing comes in all shapes and sizes. And to remove spirituality out of it, we wouldn't really be talking about healing in a holistic way.
And so from a personal perspective, and from a professional perspective, I'm excited to hear your training after free conference. I'm going to be taking notes as well because I too believe that spirituality has a place in healing and has a place in trauma informed practice for children and families and individuals.
Crystal Cardenas:
What do you both do to sustain yourselves? I'll start with Dr. Wormley.
Dr. Joycelyn Wormley:
My number one thing is prayer. I find myself praying in times that I don't realize I'm praying. And for me prayer just means I'm talking to God. The second thing is I take walks at work and I take them by myself. I journal also, a ton.
All around me I have journals. I have a journal in my purse, a journal in my desk, a journal in my car because at any point I've noticed I just need to get it out of me. Whatever it is, if it's professional or if it's personal, sometimes for me writing gets it out of me. And once it's out of me, I've talked to God about it, I've journaled about it, I've talked about it, then I don't hold on to it anymore, whatever that thing might be.
And then the last thing that I do is I have good safe people around me that I can just talk to. Luckily I do have people around me that can see me and hear me, notice the thing that maybe I haven't noticed yet about myself. And if you have good people around you they'll say, you know, Joycelyn, I noticed this. And then I'm like, oh my gosh, yes, that's what it is. That's what it is.
And then I can realize what it is because anyone in this field, sometimes you're walking around carrying it so long you don't realize it's weighing on you. And I heard this thing, someone said if you're holding a cup of water like this, holding the water and then it's the same amount, it hasn't changed but hold it for two minutes, hold it for two hours, hold it for two days, the water hasn't changed but all of a sudden that cup of water feels heavier and heavier and heavier. Eventually your arm is just going to want to let it down.
The water hasn't changed, your arm hasn't changed but holding it has caused a lot of strain on you because of how long. And I think that after time of holding in so many different things, it hits you in a different way. And it's not like my knees buckling, I can't catch my breath, but it's just like, God, I'm having a hard time focusing. I'm losing my patience. I'm easily irritable. What's going on with me? What's going on with me? And being able to just really self-reflect and assess where am with myself.
Crystal Cardenas:
Dr. Rogers, what do you do to sustain yourself?
Dr. Gimel Rogers:
I always talk about preach about live, mind, body, spirit. So for me mentally I always tell my students every great therapist has a therapist. Now you have seasons in your life so sometimes you may go weekly, sometimes you may go monthly, bi-weekly, bi-monthly or just complete termination because there's really nothing that you need to talk about. But you need to be open to going back to therapy when things really get hard to check in.
Also having your support system, as Dr. Wormley had mentioned, and research indicates that writing produces salutatory health effects. So be open to writing because you can't hold stuff in. And when you're open to writing, that helps you mentally, that helps you psychologically, that helps you emotionally.
Spiritually, listen, that is the homie. We talk all the time because as Dr. Wormley said, really, praying is just a conversation. It really is important to have that spiritual component because it's very grounding. And then physically, honestly, listen, I love a good workout. I love a good workout. I like to sprint fast and lift heavy because La Comida, we love food over here, OK.
And so, honestly, I do-- from a physical standpoint I love great food but I also love to work out. And mind, body, spirit affects the biological and it also affects, like I said, the emotional. It just affects everything. And so making sure I take care of myself, making sure I spend quality time with my loved ones and people who love me. Making sure that I invest in places that are necessary to invest in because no investment, no return.
And so you have to take time away from the noise and the busyness of life to deposit because everything is being deposited inside of me. From my clinical clients who I'm lock and key about because I have to be, to the forensic clients who I'm not lock and key about because that's the nature of forensics.
But I have a lot of people's stories inside of me and so I need to make sure that I don't hold it in, that I do release. So having conversations like this, connecting with other professionals, as well as not being afraid to go back to a therapist and taking care of your mind, body, and spirit.
Crystal Cardenas:
What advice would you give to your younger self? Or I know you mentor a lot but, what advice would you give to those professionals just starting?
Dr. Joycelyn Wormley:
The advice I would give is to remember that when you're working in child abuse, it's a marathon. It can be exhausting and you're going to run a long time, so pace yourself. Forgive yourself for not understanding immediately and grow in the profession. Never stop learning. Keep growing in the profession.
Let life be your classroom. Let experience be the teacher and pace yourself. Find a mentor, never be afraid to ask questions and never stop caring about the work that you're doing. And if you find yourself in a position where you're having a hard time caring, take a vacation, take a break, but never do a disservice to a family, to a child, to an individual by not giving it your all.
Crystal Cardenas:
Dr. Rogers?
Dr. Gimel Rogers:
Follow passion and purpose and it will take you very far. And I was reflecting on this just yesterday with a case that I had. And I said, I could have not orchestrated this. It was truly the Lord because I-- some people have strategy and they say, I'm going to take this course and I'm a work here and I'm going to do this and it's going to lead me here.
For me it's like, I'm interested in researching on this, I'm interested in teaching on this, I'm interested in being here. And has that always paid the bills where I didn't have to have five or six jobs at one time? Not necessarily.
But because of the passion and purpose, I have gotten to a point where I don't have to have five and six jobs at one time to pay the bills because I stuck to the passion and purpose and the consistency under one umbrella that has then paid off. So that's what I would tell my younger self is to continue to make informed decisions, but follow your passion and your purpose.
Crystal Cardenas:
That's great, awesome. So we're nearing the end of our episode. So is there anything that you want to leave our listeners with?
Dr. Joycelyn Wormley:
Yeah, come check out the pre-conference!
Crystal Cardenas:
Yeah. Absolutely.
Dr. Joycelyn Wormley:
People are going to to learn. For professionals that are mandated to report child abuse, come learn how to make those reports more strength-based.
Dr. Gimel Rogers:
And for budding professionals or seasoned professionals, and for those who may be interested but you're unsure, all are welcome at the pre-conference. And so we encourage you to come and even those who are skeptical, come. Come and ask your questions. Come and network with other professionals. We encourage you to come to the pre-conference because it will truly be a full day of learning that you'll never forget. So we'll see you January 2024.
Crystal Cardenas:
Oh, thank you both so much. Yes, we will see you there. And thank you. It is truly an honor to know you, to work alongside of you, and to have you present for us.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Thank you so much for listening to this episode. As a reminder, the transcript for this episode will be on our website at cirinc.org. We have a coupon code for you to register for our very special pre-conference. That coupon code will be in the show notes.
Listen to the episode here: https://linkpop.com/rwyh
COMING SOON
Episode 6 Transcript
Spirituality's Role in Trauma Recovery ft. Dr Gimel Rogers and Dr. Jocelyn Wormley
Episode Show Notes:
We're back for part II or our pre-conference promotion series. In this episode, we get into a lively and invigorating conversation with our two other presenters, Dr. Gimel Rogers and Dr. Jocelyn Wormley. In this episode, these two powerful women discuss the curse of poverty, the importance of addressing family strengths in child abuse reports, and recognizing religion's hand in abuse and spirituality's role in recovering.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Dr. Gimel Rogers:
Don't be afraid to chart and territories that may be uncomfortable.
Dr. Joycelyn Wormley:
We have to acknowledge the intersectionality of healing.
Crystal Cardenas:
Dr. Gimel Rogers is a licensed psychologist and is board certified in clinical psychology from the American Board of Professional Psychology. She earned her doctorate from Pepperdine University. She is an expert witness and assist clients who are involved in criminal, family, and civil cases involving a broad range of forensic issues.
She is faculty and the Associate Director of the online MACLP program at Pepperdine University. Additionally, Dr. Rogers presently works with survivors who are recovering from emotional, physical, and sexual abuse. She utilizes an array of therapeutic interventions, with an emphasis on cognitive behavioral therapy. She has published in the areas of culture, coping, spirituality and trauma.
Dr. Joycelyn Wormley is a forensic interview specialist, CPS social worker, and lecturer at California State University Sacramento. She specializes in child welfare services, and has spent more than a decade working with children, youth, and families in diverse communities. She received a Bachelor of Arts in psychology from the University of California, Merced, a master of social work degree from California State University, Sacramento, and a doctorate in social work from the University of Southern California.
Crystal Cardenas:
Welcome and thank you so much Dr. Rogers and Dr. Wormley for joining us today. I'm so excited to have you both on. It is truly an honor to work with you and to just hear the passion behind both of your work as you present and as you talk about all the work that you've done in the past. So what I want to do is to just kick off by asking for you to both tell us about the kind of work you do around child abuse and healing. So let's start with Dr. Rogers.
Dr. Gimel Rogers:
So in terms of the current work I do around child abuse, I am a clinical and forensic psychologist and so clinically I see individuals in my practice in terms of persons who have reported that they have experienced child abuse or any, really, form of trauma in that regard, and as well as in my forensic evaluation.
Sometimes the evaluations are specific to family violence or child welfare services if a child has been taken away from their parent. And then looking at treatment planning and assessing for child abuse. And so primarily right now currently, I mainly do assessments and evaluations for child abuse and some treatment. And I have done some research as it relates to child abuse.
Crystal Cardenas:
Dr. Wormley, will you tell us a little bit about what you do?
Dr. Joycelyn Wormley:
So I am a forensic interview specialist where I work with the County of Sacramento, interviewing children that are victims of crime. Most of the crimes in which children are victims it's sexual abuse, physical abuse, witnesses to a homicide, witnessing domestic violence. Sometimes they have witnessed things with firearms, and drugs and children. They have to be spoken to in a way that's very nurturing and developmentally on target.
And these questions have to be forensically sound to stand the test of a trial. And so I'm a forensic interview specialist where I just take that time to talk to them about what they saw, what they heard, and what they experienced. In addition to that, I work in child abuse where I encourage mandated reporters to include strengths in their child abuse reports.
Crystal Cardenas:
On the topic of training because that's what we do-- at CIR, that's our biggest focus-- what inspired you, Dr. Wormley, to start training, to continue training to focus on the strength-based training?
Dr. Joycelyn Wormley:
So for me, it started out because I realized when I was in emergency response where you investigate child abuse. And I worked in emergency response for about three and 1/2 years. But it only took me about six months to be very frustrated, very angry. And I had a teacher that told me, pay attention to what angers you.
And so what was making me so angry is that the children that were being removed, a lot of the times we were missing information. And a lot of the information that we were missing was on things that were working well. We would find out in the investigation the things that were working well, but it was sometimes weeks later as we have already started the investigation. Children have already been removed we find these things out, oh, there's a neighbor, oh, there's this person, oh, mom has evidence of this, mom has evidence of that.
And a mandated reporter who let us know of the concerns sometimes knew about these things that were going on. A lot of the times they knew. And it's like, well, why didn't you tell us at the time? Well, no one asked. And then for the ones that didn't know, it was like, well, they asked me what's working well and I didn't know-- I didn't know what was working well because I hadn't actually looked into it.
And so I started to get very frustrated with the way in which removals were happening where I felt people were just uninformed. Parents, you can make arrangements for your kids. A lot of the children are removed because of failure to make arrangements, parents locked up or there's situations with poverty. And the system is saying, parent, go to make arrangements. These children are at risk. Let's take them in.
And it's like, are we letting people know that they can make arrangements? And so I decided, while I was working in emergency response, to get my doctorate degree. And I got my doctor of social work degree and focused on child welfare. And focused on improving the systems through policy reform.
And through that process, I developed strengh-based reporting and which I said, I was going to train people because no one else is doing it. We have the standard mandated reporting training but I said I wanted to train people on identifying protective capacities at the level of mandated reporter.
Social workers we know to do that but a lot of mandated reporters are not social workers. They are educators, medical people, counselors, people that are just doing really good work with children but they're not social workers. And so I just wanted to let people know that you can report the good stuff.
No one's saying to not report the bad stuff but like I said, it's just angered me so much I wanted to do something about it. And now I have been training on strength-based reporting just for about a year and a half now and it's just been amazing thing.
Crystal Cardenas:
Dr. Rogers?
Dr. Gimel Rogers:
And I just want to add because Dr. Wormley kicked this off in my mind as well, I do trainings for other professionals specifically around racism and child welfare services, and how ethnically diverse children and adolescents are taken away and not replaced back with their families at the same rates as white children.
And talking about different forms of child abuse, how it can present, and being culturally informed and culturally sensitive when you're assessing for child abuse in the home. And so that's particularly to social workers as well as other mental health professionals when I conduct those trainings.
I love teaching, and so knowing the power of leading and advocating and teaching and training and educating so people can make informed decisions because if you don't know something, how can you make an informed decision?
And some people plead ignorance when they do know but some people really just don't know because nobody's told them. And so training and providing that information in various spaces, from the church to the community to the school setting is utmost important.
And so that's what got me into training is because when I realized that some people make mistakes because they just don't know better because nobody's ever trained them or told them, then I feel like that's a part of my job, a part of my purpose, a part of my vocation to help others in that regard.
Dr. Joycelyn Wormley:
What you said, Dr. Rogers, just really resonated with me because I feel the same way. It's like when people are uninformed and they can't make informed decisions, then it's like, how do I have the knowledge and the know how and I'm just sitting on it? Like, how does that make the world better?
And so it's sometimes feel it is my calling to educate and inform and advocate and just let people know so they can make better choices for their children, for their families, and that outcomes will be better. And you ever hear-- people will always say, social work is a calling, it is a way of life, and, yes, it is. We all have to feel empowered. And, yes, it just feels amazing to feel understood in this space.
Crystal Cardenas:
I love that. Sometimes I feel like there is a lot of assumptions about certain cultures, poverty in general. So I want to talk with both of you a little bit about that because I think it's something that if it's not right in your face, I see people hesitate to ask. So I just would love to hear your input on that.
Dr. Joycelyn Wormley:
So one of the things I've noticed is that people think that when you're living in poverty and that those that are in poverty have somehow chosen it and are not hard workers. One thing I was talking to my husband about this morning is being in poverty is expensive.
Being in poverty is expensive. We have higher interest rates. And I'm saying we because I can say maybe I'm a poverty survivor and I'm currently breaking the generational curse of poverty. Currently just closed on my second home, and lived in a family of, unfortunately, homelessness and a lot of unstable things in my past. And I've been able to share that experience with my mom and my grandma, things like that.
But, anyways, reflecting on the idea that poverty is expensive, higher interest rates, when you're always paying your first, your last, and the deposit, when you're constantly having to pay more because people don't trust you and you don't have good credit, when you're constantly working more hours, you have less time, your time is your most valuable resource.
Being in poverty is expensive. And I think people think it's glamorous because you're living on someone else's dime because you have someone else's money and all these other things, and that's not true because when you're in poverty also there is a ceiling to which you can get help.
And once you cross that ceiling, all of a sudden you get that gray area. You're not rich you're not poor. So sometimes it's safer to stay poor. You know what I mean? Sometime it's safer. And so I don't know, I think one of the assumptions that people make is that people enjoy living on someone else's dime, and that's not true.
Crystal Cardenas:
Dr. Rogers, what do you have to add? I could see you nodding.
Dr. Gimel Rogers:
Because when she was speaking, it just reminded me of the power and control wheel of historical trauma that I created.
Crystal Cardenas:
And we have available on CIR's website so shout out to Dr. Rogers for doing that. And you can email us at CIR and you can request physical copies of them.
Dr. Gimel Rogers:
I appreciate that. And shout out to CIR for retaining me to be the content expert to create that power and control wheel of historical trauma. And one of the areas that I spoke about when I did the peer reviewed chapter on the power and control wheel of historical trauma with Dr. Brian, is the fact of the poverty cycle when we look at economic abuse and how there are more check cashing places in lower socioeconomic areas that have higher interest rates and less banks.
When there are more corner stores and gas stations than there are grocery stores. And then you're saying, well, what type of food should I purchase? And you have limited amount of food that you can choose from that has a high sugar content that then affects the learning of the children that go to the school, and then they get put out of school, and then it's just a vicious cycle.
When you also want to look at property tax and how property taxes feed into the educational system and the resources in the educational system-- I mean, I can just go on and on. And when she was talking I said, yes, ma'am, that's is the research. And not only is that the research, that is lived experiences for many individuals.
The hard part about this is when somebody has been through trauma, such as poverty because poverty does produce a certain type of trauma, they can have a poverty mindset. Which means they could be the type of person to get on the treadmill and start running and still have a heart attack because they're working so hard because they're so afraid to go back to poverty.
Because they're so afraid of people thinking that they're using the system, or they're so afraid of even wanting to get help or utilize resources because they want to present a certain way. And so, really, it is such a vicious cycle that when people don't understand the true ramifications, when people don't understand the systemic and systemic oppression, the laws that are put in place, the ideologies that are in certain agencies who create these laws.
And they just merely want to victim blame and victim shame and saying you want to live this way, that's a problem. At the same time, because as a forensic psychologist, you have to look at the full picture, argue both sides. The other side is you will run into some people that are lazy. You will run into some people that abuse the system.
And at the same time, how many corporations abuse the system because they know the loopholes, because they hire CPAs who know the loopholes. They don't pay the taxes and they have the money. So you can get it on both sides. You can get it on the low SES, high SES. But if we're going to have a real conversation, the only people that are degraded, disrespected, and demean are people who don't have access to resources.
Dr. Jocelyn Wormley:
Poverty is like a curse almost. You know what I mean? And we have the two sides that abuse the system, but the only people that are criminals are the ones that can't afford representation, the ones that can't afford bail. The ones that just-- literally if you're in The Titanic, you're in the bottom of the ship, you're going to sink first.
But if you're on the top and you can afford representation, of a sudden your crime to be, oh, we considered. And I don't want to get political, but we have people running for office who are criminals, but you cannot be a criminal and apply for McDonald's. You can't be a criminal and apply to work at Bank of America because you have a record. Unless you have enough money, you can buy votes all of a sudden. So--
Dr. Gimel Rogers:
Can I just say, Dr Wormley, I am so excited for the conference in January. We are going to shut it down at the pre-conference in San Diego. It's going to be a great time so I just want to put a little plug in here. Definitely purchase your tickets, definitely come to the conference. Come get all this knowledge that we have to give in person. It's going to be a fantastic Saturday.
Crystal Cardenas:
Absolutely. And in sunny San Diego. I wanted to talk-- and Dr Wormley, you're welcome to jump in. But I wanted to ask Dr Rogers about spirituality because that is something that you're going to be talking about in the conference. And how you're seeing that, and how as providers they should consider spirituality when we're working on a treat-- on treating clients and helping in clients work through trauma.
Dr. Gimel Rogers:
Before I answer that, I want to speak to why people don't even want to acknowledge or address spirituality and religion in an intake or as a part of resiliency factors. Even though most checklists now include it, there's still this form of resistance or they-- especially if an individual does not have their own identity around spirituality or religion, I see it in my trainees, they may struggle with asking the question of, do you have beliefs? Or what are your cultural practices?
So that's something that we're definitely going to dive into a little bit more about this resistance and how if you-- once were religious or spiritual and you suffered spiritual abuse and you're still trying to help others, how you can work through some of your own stuff to still get the information you need to have a culturally sensitive trauma informed treatment plan.
And so to your point, spirituality and religion, first I just want to briefly define the two. Religion is a construct usually about different denominations or different sectors of religion. And some religion have a cultural component. So, for example, I have a friend who identifies as a Jew taboo. Culturally she's Jewish, religiously she's Buddhist.
And understanding the difference between culture and religion and how that actually impacts an individual versus another friend who identifies as Jewish both culturally and religiously. And we won't know that unless we ask the question.
And then the spiritual component, a lot of people nowadays say that they're spiritual. Well, what does that mean? Because it means something different for everybody and getting to the bottom line of what that means. And a lot of people have-- went away from different structured religions because of humans. Humans are flawed.
And so when we look at how spirituality and religion can actually play a role as both a protective factor and a risk factor in somebody, we won't know unless we ask the question. So that's the first step of just getting comfortable asking the question and how can we facilitate dialogue so we know when we're placing a child with a family how that might actually impact the child.
When we're talking about abuse and exploring with the child if they've ever felt spiritually abused, if they've ever felt the religion was used to justify corporal punishment, if they ever felt their religion was used to justify child sexual abuse, if they ever felt their religion was used to justify emotional abuse and violence.
And so that is some of the things that we're going to talk about. Don't be afraid to chart in territories that may be uncomfortable whether due to your own past and your own experiences that you may still need to work through.
Or whether just due to your own belief if you think it's unimportant, it may be unimportant to you but we have to focus on the individual. My portion of the presentation, I do want it to be healing. And my hope, my prayer, and my goal is that in that presentation, people can come to some understanding of humanity and divinity.
Crystal Cardenas:
Dr. Wormley?
Dr. Joycelyn Wormley:
We have to acknowledge the intersectionality of healing. Spirituality is one of-- don't want to say one of the most important, but in my opinion, is an important part of that intersect where we have church and spirituality and we have therapy, we have friendship, we have reflection. I mean, healing comes in all shapes and sizes. And to remove spirituality out of it, we wouldn't really be talking about healing in a holistic way.
And so from a personal perspective, and from a professional perspective, I'm excited to hear your training after free conference. I'm going to be taking notes as well because I too believe that spirituality has a place in healing and has a place in trauma informed practice for children and families and individuals.
Crystal Cardenas:
What do you both do to sustain yourselves? I'll start with Dr. Wormley.
Dr. Joycelyn Wormley:
My number one thing is prayer. I find myself praying in times that I don't realize I'm praying. And for me prayer just means I'm talking to God. The second thing is I take walks at work and I take them by myself. I journal also, a ton.
All around me I have journals. I have a journal in my purse, a journal in my desk, a journal in my car because at any point I've noticed I just need to get it out of me. Whatever it is, if it's professional or if it's personal, sometimes for me writing gets it out of me. And once it's out of me, I've talked to God about it, I've journaled about it, I've talked about it, then I don't hold on to it anymore, whatever that thing might be.
And then the last thing that I do is I have good safe people around me that I can just talk to. Luckily I do have people around me that can see me and hear me, notice the thing that maybe I haven't noticed yet about myself. And if you have good people around you they'll say, you know, Joycelyn, I noticed this. And then I'm like, oh my gosh, yes, that's what it is. That's what it is.
And then I can realize what it is because anyone in this field, sometimes you're walking around carrying it so long you don't realize it's weighing on you. And I heard this thing, someone said if you're holding a cup of water like this, holding the water and then it's the same amount, it hasn't changed but hold it for two minutes, hold it for two hours, hold it for two days, the water hasn't changed but all of a sudden that cup of water feels heavier and heavier and heavier. Eventually your arm is just going to want to let it down.
The water hasn't changed, your arm hasn't changed but holding it has caused a lot of strain on you because of how long. And I think that after time of holding in so many different things, it hits you in a different way. And it's not like my knees buckling, I can't catch my breath, but it's just like, God, I'm having a hard time focusing. I'm losing my patience. I'm easily irritable. What's going on with me? What's going on with me? And being able to just really self-reflect and assess where am with myself.
Crystal Cardenas:
Dr. Rogers, what do you do to sustain yourself?
Dr. Gimel Rogers:
I always talk about preach about live, mind, body, spirit. So for me mentally I always tell my students every great therapist has a therapist. Now you have seasons in your life so sometimes you may go weekly, sometimes you may go monthly, bi-weekly, bi-monthly or just complete termination because there's really nothing that you need to talk about. But you need to be open to going back to therapy when things really get hard to check in.
Also having your support system, as Dr. Wormley had mentioned, and research indicates that writing produces salutatory health effects. So be open to writing because you can't hold stuff in. And when you're open to writing, that helps you mentally, that helps you psychologically, that helps you emotionally.
Spiritually, listen, that is the homie. We talk all the time because as Dr. Wormley said, really, praying is just a conversation. It really is important to have that spiritual component because it's very grounding. And then physically, honestly, listen, I love a good workout. I love a good workout. I like to sprint fast and lift heavy because La Comida, we love food over here, OK.
And so, honestly, I do-- from a physical standpoint I love great food but I also love to work out. And mind, body, spirit affects the biological and it also affects, like I said, the emotional. It just affects everything. And so making sure I take care of myself, making sure I spend quality time with my loved ones and people who love me. Making sure that I invest in places that are necessary to invest in because no investment, no return.
And so you have to take time away from the noise and the busyness of life to deposit because everything is being deposited inside of me. From my clinical clients who I'm lock and key about because I have to be, to the forensic clients who I'm not lock and key about because that's the nature of forensics.
But I have a lot of people's stories inside of me and so I need to make sure that I don't hold it in, that I do release. So having conversations like this, connecting with other professionals, as well as not being afraid to go back to a therapist and taking care of your mind, body, and spirit.
Crystal Cardenas:
What advice would you give to your younger self? Or I know you mentor a lot but, what advice would you give to those professionals just starting?
Dr. Joycelyn Wormley:
The advice I would give is to remember that when you're working in child abuse, it's a marathon. It can be exhausting and you're going to run a long time, so pace yourself. Forgive yourself for not understanding immediately and grow in the profession. Never stop learning. Keep growing in the profession.
Let life be your classroom. Let experience be the teacher and pace yourself. Find a mentor, never be afraid to ask questions and never stop caring about the work that you're doing. And if you find yourself in a position where you're having a hard time caring, take a vacation, take a break, but never do a disservice to a family, to a child, to an individual by not giving it your all.
Crystal Cardenas:
Dr. Rogers?
Dr. Gimel Rogers:
Follow passion and purpose and it will take you very far. And I was reflecting on this just yesterday with a case that I had. And I said, I could have not orchestrated this. It was truly the Lord because I-- some people have strategy and they say, I'm going to take this course and I'm a work here and I'm going to do this and it's going to lead me here.
For me it's like, I'm interested in researching on this, I'm interested in teaching on this, I'm interested in being here. And has that always paid the bills where I didn't have to have five or six jobs at one time? Not necessarily.
But because of the passion and purpose, I have gotten to a point where I don't have to have five and six jobs at one time to pay the bills because I stuck to the passion and purpose and the consistency under one umbrella that has then paid off. So that's what I would tell my younger self is to continue to make informed decisions, but follow your passion and your purpose.
Crystal Cardenas:
That's great, awesome. So we're nearing the end of our episode. So is there anything that you want to leave our listeners with?
Dr. Joycelyn Wormley:
Yeah, come check out the pre-conference!
Crystal Cardenas:
Yeah. Absolutely.
Dr. Joycelyn Wormley:
People are going to to learn. For professionals that are mandated to report child abuse, come learn how to make those reports more strength-based.
Dr. Gimel Rogers:
And for budding professionals or seasoned professionals, and for those who may be interested but you're unsure, all are welcome at the pre-conference. And so we encourage you to come and even those who are skeptical, come. Come and ask your questions. Come and network with other professionals. We encourage you to come to the pre-conference because it will truly be a full day of learning that you'll never forget. So we'll see you January 2024.
Crystal Cardenas:
Oh, thank you both so much. Yes, we will see you there. And thank you. It is truly an honor to know you, to work alongside of you, and to have you present for us.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Thank you so much for listening to this episode. As a reminder, the transcript for this episode will be on our website at cirinc.org. We have a coupon code for you to register for our very special pre-conference. That coupon code will be in the show notes.
Listen to the episode here: https://linkpop.com/rwyh
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