Podcast Transcript
Handle with Care Episode 1
Listen to the episode here: https://linkpop.com/rwyh
[MUSIC PLAYING]
[Teaser intro]
Erin Runnion:
Don't get stuck in the paranoia. You got to go all the way through it because when you first learn about the scope of these crimes and the spectrum, it is just astounding.
Suzie Walsh:
And I think it's important for people listening that, especially if they're just in the infancy of their career, if you could take away these little candles from the things that you hear, I think the takeaway of that is handled with care. When you are with people, handle with care.
Aimee Hanna:
To see the transcript for this episode, please visit our website or follow the link in the show notes.
[START]
Crystal Cardenas:
Welcome to our first episode. My name is Crystal Cardenas. I'm the project director for CIR, and I'm going to be our host for today's episode. Before we begin, I want to take a moment and introduce CIR and what we do. CIR stands for the Center for Innovation and Resources. We're a non-profit organization in California.
People know us for our training events for professionals and agencies who work with survivors of crime. This podcast was created so that we could have an outlet to hold space for genuine conversation and deeper dialogue, to acknowledge why we wake up to do the work that we do, to remember why we're here.
One thing that has always stood out to me was when Kevin Mulcahy said during his training that not all superheroes wear capes. So we are going to use this platform to explore what motivates us to be superheroes and help children and adults who have been affected by violence and crimes. Each episode is going to feature presenters, staff, new and exciting research and topics that we want to explore further to help remind you of your why.
We are super excited to introduce our first guest speakers to launch our podcast. CIR has worked with these two for over 10 years, Erin Runnion is the founder of the Joyful Child Foundation in honor of her daughter Samantha Runnion. Samantha was abducted and murdered just 10 days before her sixth birthday. It was a high-profile case that has impacted how training is provided in both the child abuse and child abduction world.
Suzie Walsh is a retired police officer of 17 years. Suzie has been a child forensic interviewer for 15 years and interviewed thousands of adult and child victims of sexual abuse. In her newest endeavor, Suzie is obtaining her master's degree in marriage and family therapy.
Suzie is the lead author of the 2022 CFIT curriculum revision and actively provides training to support the mental health and efficacy of professionals dedicated to the work of children. I have the honor and privilege of knowing both of these women for over 10 years and I feel very fortunate to be able to call them both friends.
So when's the last time you two spoke?
Erin Runnion:
It has been a long time. Hi, Suzie.
Suzie Walsh:
Hi. How are you?
[LAUGHTER]
Erin Runnion:
It's been what? Three years, four years?
Suzie Walsh:
Yeah, probably three or four years since we really interfaced.
Crystal Cardenas:
How did you guys meet?
Erin Runnion:
We met on the California Child Abduction Task Force. The first time we met was at a training. The California Child Abduction Task Force does a two-day training and Suzie participated and introduced herself afterward and shared a story that… It's still blows my mind, but she was very inspired by our story and it was really special to meet her and to hear how Samantha's case inspired her to go down this path.
Suzie Walsh:
So we had met years ago, again, interfaced at that training. But I had actually seen you speak, Erin many, many years before that. So as we sit here today, I retired from law enforcement 17 years ago, right? And so it was many, many years ago that I first heard you speak. I think I was a brand-new detective. I'd been on for two years. And I heard you tell your story.
And so that catapulted a lot of things. But then I got to see you at the training and share that story with you. But my first remembrance of you Erin was many, many years ago at a training where your story made a huge influence on me and my career.
Erin Runnion:
Wow.
Suzie Walsh:
There's a much more profound side of how you treat people, in particular, in this field, it matters. And they will remember it.
Erin Runnion:
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, kind of the refrain when I talk about how we were treated when Samantha was abducted is compassionate professionalism. That is what I always come down to because at no point did I feel like we were being talked down to. They were very much wanting to keep us informed. It felt like all that we're hearing now on being a trauma-informed approach, they were doing very intuitively because they felt terrible for us.
[LAUGHTER]
Erin Runnion:
They genuinely were impacted more so, many of them later told me, than they had ever been in a case and that makes a difference. It made a difference to me that they seemed to genuinely care. And I think that it is. You'd like to think that it's common sense that you treat people well, and they're going to treat you in response to how you treat them. But it's not always that way.
And it's not easy to do when people are very, as I was, literally in the worst moments of my life and you don't know what you're going to get. And I was responsive because they were responsive. And it just kept that communication open. Made it so that from the very beginning to the end, there was collaboration and cooperation. And I think both sides were trying to do everything they could to come to the best resolution the facts would allow.
Suzie Walsh:
And I think it's important for people listening that, especially if they're just in the infancy of their career, if you could take away these little handles from the things that you hear, I think the takeaway of that is handle with care. When you are with people, handle with care.
Erin Runnion:
Yeah. And don't take it personally if they're losing their minds. It's not about you, actually.
[LAUGHTER]
Erin Runnion:
Because that is reality and people respond to whatever the trauma is. They respond to it differently. We all do. We're all bringing in our own stuff. And I think it's-- I just feel like it's harder to deal with somebody when their response is to be angry and anger is a very natural response. And it's really easy to get stuck there.
So I think officers, when they're interacting with victims and surviving family members, just understanding that your patience through that can make a huge difference. Nobody needs to be stuck in anger. It can last forever and destroy a lot of lives. I've seen it. I've come to know a lot of families who have gone through similar tragedies. And when they don't get to just grieve, it's a much harder road.
Crystal Cardenas:
Now, tell us what inspired you to get into the field of child abuse. Suzie, can you tell us your two tracks, because now you're on your second career, right? So tell us about your first career and now your second career.
[LAUGHTER]
Suzie Walsh:
I started very, very, very young. I was a police explorer cadet. And then I worked the front desk and I was a dispatcher. And as I entered the police academy I was 20 and 1/2 years old, you guys. Like Sheriff Brown if he's out there listening, you hired me, man.
[LAUGHTER]
But you had a lot of confidence in me and that was helpful. So the start of that actually comes from-- I came from a very low socioeconomic neighborhood. There's a lot of violence in my neighborhood and my mother was involved in our domestic violence relationship. And so when I was about eight years old, I was tasked with calling 911 for the very first time.
That's another podcast that I won't go into great detail, but it is something I share occasionally with crowds. And I never forgot how kind the dispatcher was to me. And I can remember seeing the units come and turn off their lights. In hindsight, I know exactly what they were doing, all the tactical pieces of it.
But I said to myself, gosh, I want to make people feel safe like they made me feel safe. And so that never left me and kind of started that trajectory. I got into law enforcement. Originally, I'm like, I'm going to go work dope. I'm going to do all of these things. And I did none of those things, you guys.
[LAUGHTER]
I went to a call at a Motel 6 in Lompoc and the woman had said, hey, something just doesn't look right. Now, this piece also stuck with me for the rest of my career. She said something doesn't look right. And so I show up as a very young patrol officer and I do this investigation upon a call that something doesn't look right. That's going to come and I'm sure at the end of this podcast again.
And the long story was this man had been going over to Mexico and posing as a physician and telling these underserved families that he could parent their children better and take them. And he was in fact taking them. And he was trafficking them. That was the very first child abuse case I can ever recall working. And I think it was the last time I ever thought I'm going to go work dope and kick in doors and do all this other stuff.
I mean, I still did those things, but in a different context. And within a year and a half, I was in the Detective Bureau and working solely on crimes against children. My field was specifically 0 to 13, and then any physical sexual abuse, drug-endangered children, and child homicide. So that's how it started.
Crystal Cardenas:
And then what made you say now I'm going to go from law enforcement to therapy, which, I mean, in the multidisciplinary world you're talking like apples and oranges. Cops don't like the touchy-feely stuff. So how did you go from that end to the other?
Suzie Walsh:
I was given the honor of bearing witness to a lot of people suffering. To a lot of families, to communities that had losses where there was a child homicide, those communities suffered as well. Not nearly as great as their family, but the community suffers because it says something about what's happening within your community. And so after leading hundreds of families through trials and the thick of the beginning and the end, you also become very acutely aware that that end when the trial is done, that's the beginning. That's not the end.
And at the end of this when we go back to the thought process of people matter, there are people that are left in the wreckage of not only the crime but the trial, because as best as we can try in these systems, they're not perfect, and there's more trauma that comes from that. And I was raised into the context of, hey, if you see a problem and you don't do something about it you inherently become part of it.
[LAUGHTER]
So I'm like, OK, well, I think this part's over, and there's a different leg that I need to pick up on.
Crystal Cardenas:
It's something that we have to keep in mind exactly what you were just saying about it that if you don't contribute you are a part of the problem. And I think that so many people will just say, that's not my area, or that's not my job, and I'm just going to focus on what I'm tasked to do. But I think that's why CIR preaches so much of the multidisciplinary. We do. We are a team and we all have to work together. And I think that being in our little silos I only do this part of the investigation, prosecution section. So it does a disservice to the families if we're not thinking about how it impacts them long term.
Erin Runnion:
Wow. Suzie, I love your story. That is so powerful. And I wish that that was something that you could teach. I wish that-- I mean, I guess that is why we do trainings is because we're hoping that everybody there from every discipline will be inspired by their collective power. But you're 100% correct, they go through all of this stuff.
And I remember at the end of sentencing when I finally got to do my victim impact speech and then come out, do a press conference, I remember turning to my mom and I just felt like an actual physical weight was lifted off of me that had been there for three years. And when you're in a situation of fear like your adrenaline is up to your eyes, the letdown from that is a crash. And it can be really scary and totally overwhelming and people really do need to be guided through that process.
I was very, very lucky. My mom lived with us and she was always there for me and somehow managed to maintain her sanity through it all. So I could say anything and go in any hour of the day and she'd let me just be with what I was going through, but the need for therapists who actually understand that journey is just huge. So thank you so much for the work that you are doing. I am so delighted to hear that.
Suzie Walsh:
Thank you.
Erin Runnion:
I actually have a friend who was an FBI agent who retired. When she retired, she went to school and became a therapist. Very similar. Yeah. It was very much around trafficking because there's a desperate need, particularly for young victims who have long-term and very complex traumas.
Crystal Cardenas:
All right. So now, Erin, tell us about what got you in this field.
Erin Runnion:
For me, it was very much a response to my daughter's abduction. Samantha was taken by a complete stranger. She was playing outside with her best friend, a car came around, saw the girls playing there. Apparently, he came around again, stopped, got out and said he lost his puppy, and then rushed at Samantha and grabbed her. And she was found less than 24 hours later having been sexually assaulted and murdered.
And in the days after that, but first I just have to say that 23 hours was the longest day of my life ever. It was living with not knowing where she was and what was happening. It was the absolute worst. And so going into the grief, I already had-- because I had heard of stories of children being missing. Elizabeth Smart had been taken a month earlier. So that was like front-page news at the time. And so I just already was thinking about other families and at least I knew that her suffering was over.
And then we went on the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children's websites the night she was taken and started learning. The first thing we saw was that every year there were over 58,000 child abductions in this country that were not family related. And we said, how is there not a national movement to stop this from happening?
So I was just inspired by the realization, I guess, that it wasn't just my baby and that so many people-- I mean, because it was a high profile case, we got like 10,000 letters in the mail over the next month. There was a vigil outside my house for two weeks. I felt like I was being told that I needed to be a voice for Samantha and for all of the child victims that we never even hear about. And that is why I got into the work.
And just the more I learned, the more determined I became, and then the more I did the work, the more I was inspired by the people I met. It's no coincidence that when you work in a field that is all about protecting children you're surrounded by incredible humans. So I think that's important and I think it's important to have inspiration that is bigger than just your own story. Because sometimes when I'm feeling overwhelmed-- that's what I call it, but it's like paralysis when I'm overcomplicating things--
[LAUGHTER]
--and it gets very hard to move forward when I feel very stuck, sometimes focusing on Samantha and get up, you have to, you know, that can be really effective. But I'd say it's been 20 years. And just as often, it is thinking about the work that my friend Suzie is doing. It is thinking about my volunteer who is inspiring children every day. And it's the children who say something, it's the children who are quiet the first five times I teach them and the last time suddenly they're yelling and running.
All:
[LAUGHTER]
Erin Runnion:
Those things are what keep us doing the work. We might be inspired initially by something, by hard things, but there is actual joy in doing this very serious work. Did I answer your question?
Crystal Cardenas:
You did.
Erin Runnion:
OK.
Crystal Cardenas:
So beautifully.
[LAUGHTER]
Erin Runnion:
Thank you.
Crystal Cardenas:
But I did want to ask you both, I'm sure that you must feel this way. There are times when I can sit and just get bogged down by all of the darkness in the world and it's such a huge problem. I'll sit and I'll start thinking about trafficking and then parental abduction. And then it's like mental health and then it's shootings. And I get sometimes so overwhelmed, like you were saying Erin, where it's just I'm stalled and then I almost feel like what is the point? It's so much bigger than me, can I really fix this?
And then I have to shake it because in my mind I always say, it's still there. Whether or not I want to read the news or focus on child abuse and preventing it, it's still going to be there. I always say that working in this world is like seeing color for the first time.
You live in a world where it's black and white and then all of a sudden you learn about all of the grooming and sex abuse and trafficking and all that stuff that's going on and it's like you can never go back to seeing the other way anymore. You've seen color for the first time, you're always going to see it.
So with that, how do you both navigate those times when it feels so overwhelming that you want to just say what's the point, or I'm not making a big enough difference, so maybe I should just stop?
Erin Runnion:
Well, I think that is actually why-- that's the real reason I ended up totally 100% focused on children and teaching them. Because when I did legislation, the frustration really got to me. The realization that they're taking their photo ops and law enforcement may do this instead of shall and suddenly it's optional, and I didn't know that, right?
Crystal Cardenas:
Right.
Erin Runnion:
The learning curve was extreme. And it still took four years to get that dang thing passed. And then you have to fight every four years for it to get funded again. And it felt very endless, and it is. But that's why you have organizations that are just dedicated to lobbying. For me, I needed to see the impact. I can still do the lobbying, but I need something that I need on a regular basis.
[LAUGHTER]
And children are that. Children are inherently present. That is their gift to us every single day. If we can just follow their lead and be here right now, there's magic here. And they keep me going. Mine, all grew up. It's very rude. They're like adults now.
All:
[LAUGHTER]
Erin Runnion:
But I still get to teach them. And yeah, I was out of the classroom for three years during the pandemic and just being there and present with them, again, that's what was wrong with me. I need them. They just shine a light on how inherently good life can be. And I think we all need that.
Suzie Walsh:
I just have to say that I do agree with you, Erin. So now I'm in the therapeutic world. I work at a clinic. It's a trauma center clinic. I only work with children and they're joyful. They're so joyful. Even in the hardships and in the healing process they find moments to be joyful and funny. And they inspire a lot of hope just by how they proceed in the world.
[LAUGHTER]
Suzie Walsh:
And so I thought that was very well said, Erin.
I think for me it's holding space between I have enough power to change things and I should, and I'm also not the most powerful person in the world. So just trying to keep hold of those two things and having a commitment to helping people but also creating more good people that will help. So creating more helpers, essentially.
And so I see the therapeutic work that I do as being like with the kids that I really want to be with, and I see the training work as going out and creating more good humans that will go and get inspired and do good work.
Yeah, it can be heavy when you realize the enormity of the task and your role in it. It can be overwhelming. And so just trying to balance that out and also just create more people to go do good work.
Erin Runnion:
Yeah. And recognizing that the impact that you're making even if it's only on one, for that one, it's the world. We can make such a difference by impacting one person positively. And so every single day in every person that we train they impact not just one, not just one in a day. It's exponential. And thank goodness because, yeah, the issues that we're trying to address are overwhelming. Absolutely overwhelming. But there are so many good people doing the work.
So it is very important for us to be holding each other up and helping and recognize too when we need help, recognizing when I'm not the person to help this one. We're not connecting, this isn't working, turning to a colleague and saying they will be better served by you. Recognizing that we can't be everything all the time to everyone.
When I was a kid all I wanted to do was make people happy. When they ask children what they want to do when they grow up, I want to make people happy.
Crystal Cardenas:
As an empathetic person, sometimes when I'm deep into this content or when you hear someone's story or in the case of Suzie and the forensic interview world, when you're listening to hours of very detailed abuse, right? I can imagine that that impacts you on a level like no one can imagine. So, Suzie, can you tell us what are some things that you do or you think others can do to help with that?
Suzie Walsh:
It started off in like the world is not a safe place at all, whatsoever, and my kids can go nowhere ever. I think that that's where it started. It's changed over the years. And I think right now, I'm in a place where I see kids every single day. And I feel honored to bear witness to the things that they've experienced and that they're trusting me enough.
And also, given the colleagues I work with and the amazing humans I work with, I also can in a really satisfying way look at this kid and know you are in the right place. You are 100% in the right hands. I may be doing this one piece of it because my clinic has forensic interviewers and therapists, and I know that person's going to go off to their therapist and they and their families are in the place that they should be.
So that's comforting to know that kids are resilient. And with the right care, they're going to be OK. And they may just go out and remember this moment and then go change the world.
Crystal Cardenas:
I know that you have a lot of parents who reach out to you and tell you their stories. And unfortunately, you have a lot of families without resolution, without closure still grieving. How do you cope with hearing so much tragedy and loss and still wanting to continue this work?
Erin Runnion:
They're part of why I do it. I get a steely resolve from my surviving family, folks, and surviving victims. I mean, I don't think I've ever given a speech where I haven't had an adult disclose to me afterward. It is cliche to say that everyone has a story, but it's astounding to me the things that we can go through as humans and still manage to not just live successful lives, but fulfilled lives and to know that yeah, with time and with healing, it is an experience that is not who they are.
And giving them the space to get through that so that they can again let it be what it is and not carry it with them every single day. It informs who they are or it isn't who they are. And I just channel it by trying to be productive and trying to prevent future victims, but I also try to hold space for them because everybody feels like nobody can relate. And when something so extreme happens, it's like they go to people with similar levels of tragedy. It's the darndest thing. But yeah. I don't actually handle it well.
All:
[LAUGHTER]
Erin Runnion:
I really don't. I don't seek it out. I don't work directly with victims because I do feel like there's a limit to what I can take. There really is. And that's just honest.
Crystal Cardenas:
I appreciate both of your honesties because I do have a follow-up question to that. Suzie when you mentioned when you first started, you were like, I'm not going to let my kids go anywhere or do anything. And I think that that's very important for our audience to hear. That's a very genuine and normal feeling when you first start to get into this work. So how do you navigate that? Because I know that I had a really hard time when I first became a mom.
And I'm not going to lie. At one point I was so hypervigilant, I thought anybody could be a perpetrator, including my brothers who now I would never-- now that I'm out of that would never ever guess it, but it was like anybody could do it and I don't trust a single person other than me with my child.
Erin Runnion:
Well, then we literally teach that. We need every parent to experience that so that they can actually see it. But you have to go there. You have to allow that moment of “yeah, it's terrible.” But yeah, don't get stuck in the paranoia. You got to go all the way through it. Because when you first learn about the scope of these crimes and the spectrum, it is just astounding. And no, they don't get to go outside. My children sadly did not want to. So that was different.
Suzie Walsh:
I think what Erin said is really important because if you don't acknowledge it and you don't see it, then what are you going to do about it as a parent? And so luckily, I was able to move through that paranoia.
And I would say that if there are professionals out there who guide other parents or who are parents themselves and listening, these are really good launching points for conversations with kids, and not conversations where you're like, don't go and try to find someone's puppy, because kids innately have such an empathy side of them and they want to be helpers and they're taught in school to be helpers.
And so it's finding other ways to tell kids to help care for themselves when you're not there. So I do tell my kids like, hey, if you're with me, I'm 100% in charge of your care and I will make sure you are always safe. When I am not with you, there is some amount of you that is responsible for your safety. And so if someone says, hey, I need help, your job is to say I will find a grownup to help you because a grownup should not ask children for help. They should find another grownup.
And your response shouldn't this is how you help that person, you go find me, or you find another adult. And so, Erin, you talked about how that fear can become paralyzing and I just can't agree enough. There's no other way to describe it. But I encourage people that are listening or working with adults and children to help them move through it and find reasonable ways to have these conversations with kids that are honest and that come with attainable things that kids can do when they are unsure or uncomfortable or in danger.
Erin Runnion:
100%. That is why the Joyful Child Brave Program exists. Because every parent I think wants to teach their kids how to be safe, but we don't want to think about the bad things that could happen and we don't want to scare them. So we end up either not teaching them anything or just trying to scare the heck out of them so that they don't want to do anything. There's got to be a better way.
And so over the years, that's how I ultimately ended up focusing on prevention education because it's scary to us because we know the reality, children don't. So it's actually very empowering for them to know what to do if their safe adult isn't there. And that is what the Joyful Child does. And you can go to the joyfulchild.org actually and we have tips for parents that are free, like a whole little conversation with worksheets that you can print out and guide you through that conversation because sometimes we don't know what to say. So I tried to make it really easy for parents to start this conversation. And you can start them as soon as your children are verbal because it's really never too soon to empower them to trust their own body.
Suzie Walsh:
You established the Joyful Child Foundation many, many years ago. And so I got to use some of those things with my children and have those conversations. And it really brought a lot of light and comfort to “hey, safety is not just about touches, it's about wear your helmet, and look both ways.”
And safety has just this wide range and it made it, like, going through your materials and talking with you and having my children, it made it OK to have these difficult conversations that range again from the helmets to what happens if someone comes talks to you. I encourage people that are listening to go visit your site. It was incredibly helpful for me, and it still is.
Erin Runnion:
Thank you. Thank you. That makes me so happy to hear.
All:
[LAUGHTER]
Crystal Cardenas:
I agree. I use it on my little ones. And I even showed Erin a video of the twins who are two can do the “stop, be brave, be safe. It's so cute.” I want to bring us back full circle. And I want you to tell us about the advice that you have for your younger self as you started into your first position in the child abuse world.
Suzie Walsh:
So one of my life mottos after meeting you Erin was Be Brave and got the words tattooed on my body. It's so significant to me.
[LAUGHTER]
And I think people should have something like that to reflect on and know that it changes over the years. Be Brave many years ago was learn everything you can. Be Brave became hearing children's stories during forensic interviewing. Be Brave became standing in front of hundreds of people at a time to teach them, even though I felt very, very small and insignificant.
Be Brave, it just changed over the years for me. But I think the most important part of that piece and then I would go back and tell myself over and over again and I would tell people in the room today is that the right thing is hard to do. And if you could do anything in terms of being brave, I'm not going to ask you to stand up and change the laws or any of those things, I think the biggest thing for people that are listening that want to be brave that want to contribute to do is to call.
Call if you see something that does not seem right. So many people are afraid of being wrong if they see something suspicious. And I just want to encourage people that if you call and you see something suspicious, the worst-case scenario is you're wrong. That's the worst-case scenario. Most times people are like worst case means that I didn't see it correctly and that I'm not right and that it's not factual and it's like who cares.
No one ever wants to show up and go “jeez, child abuse didn't happen today, that's a real disappointer.” No one wants that. No one in those professions hopes that when they show up it's true. And I realized over the course of my career in dealing with hundreds of people that that first phone call is incredibly hard for people to make because they want to assume the best and think that they're wrong and not ensue that they're biased in some way.
There's all of these pieces that come in. And so I would say that looking back I would tell myself that be brave is going to have lots of different meanings over the years, doing the right thing is going to be difficult to do, and you should still always, always, always do it.
Crystal Cardenas:
Thank you.
Erin Runnion:
Be brave was Samantha's words. So yeah. She wrote it on notes to her brother and Peter Pan, and so, yes, I am very much inspired by those words also. But also I would say sanity first. That was over the years that eventually became a motto of mine for self-care was to just give myself permission to say no. It became a very important thing for me and just reminding myself that our sanity is a lot more fragile than people like to believe
And so yeah, I think after I went to some dark places in the years later knowing that it's OK to take care of myself and giving myself permission to do that is really critical, especially if you are a parent. If you have children in the home, you cannot bring the work in this field home. It's really important. So take care of yourselves. We all need you to be your best self.
Crystal Cardenas:
Thank you. And thank you both so much for being our guest today. You both are truly one of my whys. And I feel really honored to be on this journey with you and to know you and to feel inspired by both of your work on a daily basis. So thank you both. And thank you to all of our listeners, and I hope that this has helped you remember why you're here.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Crystal Cardenas:
To see more of Erin's work and resources, please visit the joyfulchild.org. We're going to add the link to our show notes.
Podcast Transcript
Handle with Care Episode 1
Listen to the episode here: https://linkpop.com/rwyh
[MUSIC PLAYING]
[Teaser intro]
Erin Runnion:
Don't get stuck in the paranoia. You got to go all the way through it because when you first learn about the scope of these crimes and the spectrum, it is just astounding.
Suzie Walsh:
And I think it's important for people listening that, especially if they're just in the infancy of their career, if you could take away these little candles from the things that you hear, I think the takeaway of that is handled with care. When you are with people, handle with care.
Aimee Hanna:
To see the transcript for this episode, please visit our website or follow the link in the show notes.
[START]
Crystal Cardenas:
Welcome to our first episode. My name is Crystal Cardenas. I'm the project director for CIR, and I'm going to be our host for today's episode. Before we begin, I want to take a moment and introduce CIR and what we do. CIR stands for the Center for Innovation and Resources. We're a non-profit organization in California.
People know us for our training events for professionals and agencies who work with survivors of crime. This podcast was created so that we could have an outlet to hold space for genuine conversation and deeper dialogue, to acknowledge why we wake up to do the work that we do, to remember why we're here.
One thing that has always stood out to me was when Kevin Mulcahy said during his training that not all superheroes wear capes. So we are going to use this platform to explore what motivates us to be superheroes and help children and adults who have been affected by violence and crimes. Each episode is going to feature presenters, staff, new and exciting research and topics that we want to explore further to help remind you of your why.
We are super excited to introduce our first guest speakers to launch our podcast. CIR has worked with these two for over 10 years, Erin Runnion is the founder of the Joyful Child Foundation in honor of her daughter Samantha Runnion. Samantha was abducted and murdered just 10 days before her sixth birthday. It was a high-profile case that has impacted how training is provided in both the child abuse and child abduction world.
Suzie Walsh is a retired police officer of 17 years. Suzie has been a child forensic interviewer for 15 years and interviewed thousands of adult and child victims of sexual abuse. In her newest endeavor, Suzie is obtaining her master's degree in marriage and family therapy.
Suzie is the lead author of the 2022 CFIT curriculum revision and actively provides training to support the mental health and efficacy of professionals dedicated to the work of children. I have the honor and privilege of knowing both of these women for over 10 years and I feel very fortunate to be able to call them both friends.
So when's the last time you two spoke?
Erin Runnion:
It has been a long time. Hi, Suzie.
Suzie Walsh:
Hi. How are you?
[LAUGHTER]
Erin Runnion:
It's been what? Three years, four years?
Suzie Walsh:
Yeah, probably three or four years since we really interfaced.
Crystal Cardenas:
How did you guys meet?
Erin Runnion:
We met on the California Child Abduction Task Force. The first time we met was at a training. The California Child Abduction Task Force does a two-day training and Suzie participated and introduced herself afterward and shared a story that… It's still blows my mind, but she was very inspired by our story and it was really special to meet her and to hear how Samantha's case inspired her to go down this path.
Suzie Walsh:
So we had met years ago, again, interfaced at that training. But I had actually seen you speak, Erin many, many years before that. So as we sit here today, I retired from law enforcement 17 years ago, right? And so it was many, many years ago that I first heard you speak. I think I was a brand-new detective. I'd been on for two years. And I heard you tell your story.
And so that catapulted a lot of things. But then I got to see you at the training and share that story with you. But my first remembrance of you Erin was many, many years ago at a training where your story made a huge influence on me and my career.
Erin Runnion:
Wow.
Suzie Walsh:
There's a much more profound side of how you treat people, in particular, in this field, it matters. And they will remember it.
Erin Runnion:
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, kind of the refrain when I talk about how we were treated when Samantha was abducted is compassionate professionalism. That is what I always come down to because at no point did I feel like we were being talked down to. They were very much wanting to keep us informed. It felt like all that we're hearing now on being a trauma-informed approach, they were doing very intuitively because they felt terrible for us.
[LAUGHTER]
Erin Runnion:
They genuinely were impacted more so, many of them later told me, than they had ever been in a case and that makes a difference. It made a difference to me that they seemed to genuinely care. And I think that it is. You'd like to think that it's common sense that you treat people well, and they're going to treat you in response to how you treat them. But it's not always that way.
And it's not easy to do when people are very, as I was, literally in the worst moments of my life and you don't know what you're going to get. And I was responsive because they were responsive. And it just kept that communication open. Made it so that from the very beginning to the end, there was collaboration and cooperation. And I think both sides were trying to do everything they could to come to the best resolution the facts would allow.
Suzie Walsh:
And I think it's important for people listening that, especially if they're just in the infancy of their career, if you could take away these little handles from the things that you hear, I think the takeaway of that is handle with care. When you are with people, handle with care.
Erin Runnion:
Yeah. And don't take it personally if they're losing their minds. It's not about you, actually.
[LAUGHTER]
Erin Runnion:
Because that is reality and people respond to whatever the trauma is. They respond to it differently. We all do. We're all bringing in our own stuff. And I think it's-- I just feel like it's harder to deal with somebody when their response is to be angry and anger is a very natural response. And it's really easy to get stuck there.
So I think officers, when they're interacting with victims and surviving family members, just understanding that your patience through that can make a huge difference. Nobody needs to be stuck in anger. It can last forever and destroy a lot of lives. I've seen it. I've come to know a lot of families who have gone through similar tragedies. And when they don't get to just grieve, it's a much harder road.
Crystal Cardenas:
Now, tell us what inspired you to get into the field of child abuse. Suzie, can you tell us your two tracks, because now you're on your second career, right? So tell us about your first career and now your second career.
[LAUGHTER]
Suzie Walsh:
I started very, very, very young. I was a police explorer cadet. And then I worked the front desk and I was a dispatcher. And as I entered the police academy I was 20 and 1/2 years old, you guys. Like Sheriff Brown if he's out there listening, you hired me, man.
[LAUGHTER]
But you had a lot of confidence in me and that was helpful. So the start of that actually comes from-- I came from a very low socioeconomic neighborhood. There's a lot of violence in my neighborhood and my mother was involved in our domestic violence relationship. And so when I was about eight years old, I was tasked with calling 911 for the very first time.
That's another podcast that I won't go into great detail, but it is something I share occasionally with crowds. And I never forgot how kind the dispatcher was to me. And I can remember seeing the units come and turn off their lights. In hindsight, I know exactly what they were doing, all the tactical pieces of it.
But I said to myself, gosh, I want to make people feel safe like they made me feel safe. And so that never left me and kind of started that trajectory. I got into law enforcement. Originally, I'm like, I'm going to go work dope. I'm going to do all of these things. And I did none of those things, you guys.
[LAUGHTER]
I went to a call at a Motel 6 in Lompoc and the woman had said, hey, something just doesn't look right. Now, this piece also stuck with me for the rest of my career. She said something doesn't look right. And so I show up as a very young patrol officer and I do this investigation upon a call that something doesn't look right. That's going to come and I'm sure at the end of this podcast again.
And the long story was this man had been going over to Mexico and posing as a physician and telling these underserved families that he could parent their children better and take them. And he was in fact taking them. And he was trafficking them. That was the very first child abuse case I can ever recall working. And I think it was the last time I ever thought I'm going to go work dope and kick in doors and do all this other stuff.
I mean, I still did those things, but in a different context. And within a year and a half, I was in the Detective Bureau and working solely on crimes against children. My field was specifically 0 to 13, and then any physical sexual abuse, drug-endangered children, and child homicide. So that's how it started.
Crystal Cardenas:
And then what made you say now I'm going to go from law enforcement to therapy, which, I mean, in the multidisciplinary world you're talking like apples and oranges. Cops don't like the touchy-feely stuff. So how did you go from that end to the other?
Suzie Walsh:
I was given the honor of bearing witness to a lot of people suffering. To a lot of families, to communities that had losses where there was a child homicide, those communities suffered as well. Not nearly as great as their family, but the community suffers because it says something about what's happening within your community. And so after leading hundreds of families through trials and the thick of the beginning and the end, you also become very acutely aware that that end when the trial is done, that's the beginning. That's not the end.
And at the end of this when we go back to the thought process of people matter, there are people that are left in the wreckage of not only the crime but the trial, because as best as we can try in these systems, they're not perfect, and there's more trauma that comes from that. And I was raised into the context of, hey, if you see a problem and you don't do something about it you inherently become part of it.
[LAUGHTER]
So I'm like, OK, well, I think this part's over, and there's a different leg that I need to pick up on.
Crystal Cardenas:
It's something that we have to keep in mind exactly what you were just saying about it that if you don't contribute you are a part of the problem. And I think that so many people will just say, that's not my area, or that's not my job, and I'm just going to focus on what I'm tasked to do. But I think that's why CIR preaches so much of the multidisciplinary. We do. We are a team and we all have to work together. And I think that being in our little silos I only do this part of the investigation, prosecution section. So it does a disservice to the families if we're not thinking about how it impacts them long term.
Erin Runnion:
Wow. Suzie, I love your story. That is so powerful. And I wish that that was something that you could teach. I wish that-- I mean, I guess that is why we do trainings is because we're hoping that everybody there from every discipline will be inspired by their collective power. But you're 100% correct, they go through all of this stuff.
And I remember at the end of sentencing when I finally got to do my victim impact speech and then come out, do a press conference, I remember turning to my mom and I just felt like an actual physical weight was lifted off of me that had been there for three years. And when you're in a situation of fear like your adrenaline is up to your eyes, the letdown from that is a crash. And it can be really scary and totally overwhelming and people really do need to be guided through that process.
I was very, very lucky. My mom lived with us and she was always there for me and somehow managed to maintain her sanity through it all. So I could say anything and go in any hour of the day and she'd let me just be with what I was going through, but the need for therapists who actually understand that journey is just huge. So thank you so much for the work that you are doing. I am so delighted to hear that.
Suzie Walsh:
Thank you.
Erin Runnion:
I actually have a friend who was an FBI agent who retired. When she retired, she went to school and became a therapist. Very similar. Yeah. It was very much around trafficking because there's a desperate need, particularly for young victims who have long-term and very complex traumas.
Crystal Cardenas:
All right. So now, Erin, tell us about what got you in this field.
Erin Runnion:
For me, it was very much a response to my daughter's abduction. Samantha was taken by a complete stranger. She was playing outside with her best friend, a car came around, saw the girls playing there. Apparently, he came around again, stopped, got out and said he lost his puppy, and then rushed at Samantha and grabbed her. And she was found less than 24 hours later having been sexually assaulted and murdered.
And in the days after that, but first I just have to say that 23 hours was the longest day of my life ever. It was living with not knowing where she was and what was happening. It was the absolute worst. And so going into the grief, I already had-- because I had heard of stories of children being missing. Elizabeth Smart had been taken a month earlier. So that was like front-page news at the time. And so I just already was thinking about other families and at least I knew that her suffering was over.
And then we went on the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children's websites the night she was taken and started learning. The first thing we saw was that every year there were over 58,000 child abductions in this country that were not family related. And we said, how is there not a national movement to stop this from happening?
So I was just inspired by the realization, I guess, that it wasn't just my baby and that so many people-- I mean, because it was a high profile case, we got like 10,000 letters in the mail over the next month. There was a vigil outside my house for two weeks. I felt like I was being told that I needed to be a voice for Samantha and for all of the child victims that we never even hear about. And that is why I got into the work.
And just the more I learned, the more determined I became, and then the more I did the work, the more I was inspired by the people I met. It's no coincidence that when you work in a field that is all about protecting children you're surrounded by incredible humans. So I think that's important and I think it's important to have inspiration that is bigger than just your own story. Because sometimes when I'm feeling overwhelmed-- that's what I call it, but it's like paralysis when I'm overcomplicating things--
[LAUGHTER]
--and it gets very hard to move forward when I feel very stuck, sometimes focusing on Samantha and get up, you have to, you know, that can be really effective. But I'd say it's been 20 years. And just as often, it is thinking about the work that my friend Suzie is doing. It is thinking about my volunteer who is inspiring children every day. And it's the children who say something, it's the children who are quiet the first five times I teach them and the last time suddenly they're yelling and running.
All:
[LAUGHTER]
Erin Runnion:
Those things are what keep us doing the work. We might be inspired initially by something, by hard things, but there is actual joy in doing this very serious work. Did I answer your question?
Crystal Cardenas:
You did.
Erin Runnion:
OK.
Crystal Cardenas:
So beautifully.
[LAUGHTER]
Erin Runnion:
Thank you.
Crystal Cardenas:
But I did want to ask you both, I'm sure that you must feel this way. There are times when I can sit and just get bogged down by all of the darkness in the world and it's such a huge problem. I'll sit and I'll start thinking about trafficking and then parental abduction. And then it's like mental health and then it's shootings. And I get sometimes so overwhelmed, like you were saying Erin, where it's just I'm stalled and then I almost feel like what is the point? It's so much bigger than me, can I really fix this?
And then I have to shake it because in my mind I always say, it's still there. Whether or not I want to read the news or focus on child abuse and preventing it, it's still going to be there. I always say that working in this world is like seeing color for the first time.
You live in a world where it's black and white and then all of a sudden you learn about all of the grooming and sex abuse and trafficking and all that stuff that's going on and it's like you can never go back to seeing the other way anymore. You've seen color for the first time, you're always going to see it.
So with that, how do you both navigate those times when it feels so overwhelming that you want to just say what's the point, or I'm not making a big enough difference, so maybe I should just stop?
Erin Runnion:
Well, I think that is actually why-- that's the real reason I ended up totally 100% focused on children and teaching them. Because when I did legislation, the frustration really got to me. The realization that they're taking their photo ops and law enforcement may do this instead of shall and suddenly it's optional, and I didn't know that, right?
Crystal Cardenas:
Right.
Erin Runnion:
The learning curve was extreme. And it still took four years to get that dang thing passed. And then you have to fight every four years for it to get funded again. And it felt very endless, and it is. But that's why you have organizations that are just dedicated to lobbying. For me, I needed to see the impact. I can still do the lobbying, but I need something that I need on a regular basis.
[LAUGHTER]
And children are that. Children are inherently present. That is their gift to us every single day. If we can just follow their lead and be here right now, there's magic here. And they keep me going. Mine, all grew up. It's very rude. They're like adults now.
All:
[LAUGHTER]
Erin Runnion:
But I still get to teach them. And yeah, I was out of the classroom for three years during the pandemic and just being there and present with them, again, that's what was wrong with me. I need them. They just shine a light on how inherently good life can be. And I think we all need that.
Suzie Walsh:
I just have to say that I do agree with you, Erin. So now I'm in the therapeutic world. I work at a clinic. It's a trauma center clinic. I only work with children and they're joyful. They're so joyful. Even in the hardships and in the healing process they find moments to be joyful and funny. And they inspire a lot of hope just by how they proceed in the world.
[LAUGHTER]
Suzie Walsh:
And so I thought that was very well said, Erin.
I think for me it's holding space between I have enough power to change things and I should, and I'm also not the most powerful person in the world. So just trying to keep hold of those two things and having a commitment to helping people but also creating more good people that will help. So creating more helpers, essentially.
And so I see the therapeutic work that I do as being like with the kids that I really want to be with, and I see the training work as going out and creating more good humans that will go and get inspired and do good work.
Yeah, it can be heavy when you realize the enormity of the task and your role in it. It can be overwhelming. And so just trying to balance that out and also just create more people to go do good work.
Erin Runnion:
Yeah. And recognizing that the impact that you're making even if it's only on one, for that one, it's the world. We can make such a difference by impacting one person positively. And so every single day in every person that we train they impact not just one, not just one in a day. It's exponential. And thank goodness because, yeah, the issues that we're trying to address are overwhelming. Absolutely overwhelming. But there are so many good people doing the work.
So it is very important for us to be holding each other up and helping and recognize too when we need help, recognizing when I'm not the person to help this one. We're not connecting, this isn't working, turning to a colleague and saying they will be better served by you. Recognizing that we can't be everything all the time to everyone.
When I was a kid all I wanted to do was make people happy. When they ask children what they want to do when they grow up, I want to make people happy.
Crystal Cardenas:
As an empathetic person, sometimes when I'm deep into this content or when you hear someone's story or in the case of Suzie and the forensic interview world, when you're listening to hours of very detailed abuse, right? I can imagine that that impacts you on a level like no one can imagine. So, Suzie, can you tell us what are some things that you do or you think others can do to help with that?
Suzie Walsh:
It started off in like the world is not a safe place at all, whatsoever, and my kids can go nowhere ever. I think that that's where it started. It's changed over the years. And I think right now, I'm in a place where I see kids every single day. And I feel honored to bear witness to the things that they've experienced and that they're trusting me enough.
And also, given the colleagues I work with and the amazing humans I work with, I also can in a really satisfying way look at this kid and know you are in the right place. You are 100% in the right hands. I may be doing this one piece of it because my clinic has forensic interviewers and therapists, and I know that person's going to go off to their therapist and they and their families are in the place that they should be.
So that's comforting to know that kids are resilient. And with the right care, they're going to be OK. And they may just go out and remember this moment and then go change the world.
Crystal Cardenas:
I know that you have a lot of parents who reach out to you and tell you their stories. And unfortunately, you have a lot of families without resolution, without closure still grieving. How do you cope with hearing so much tragedy and loss and still wanting to continue this work?
Erin Runnion:
They're part of why I do it. I get a steely resolve from my surviving family, folks, and surviving victims. I mean, I don't think I've ever given a speech where I haven't had an adult disclose to me afterward. It is cliche to say that everyone has a story, but it's astounding to me the things that we can go through as humans and still manage to not just live successful lives, but fulfilled lives and to know that yeah, with time and with healing, it is an experience that is not who they are.
And giving them the space to get through that so that they can again let it be what it is and not carry it with them every single day. It informs who they are or it isn't who they are. And I just channel it by trying to be productive and trying to prevent future victims, but I also try to hold space for them because everybody feels like nobody can relate. And when something so extreme happens, it's like they go to people with similar levels of tragedy. It's the darndest thing. But yeah. I don't actually handle it well.
All:
[LAUGHTER]
Erin Runnion:
I really don't. I don't seek it out. I don't work directly with victims because I do feel like there's a limit to what I can take. There really is. And that's just honest.
Crystal Cardenas:
I appreciate both of your honesties because I do have a follow-up question to that. Suzie when you mentioned when you first started, you were like, I'm not going to let my kids go anywhere or do anything. And I think that that's very important for our audience to hear. That's a very genuine and normal feeling when you first start to get into this work. So how do you navigate that? Because I know that I had a really hard time when I first became a mom.
And I'm not going to lie. At one point I was so hypervigilant, I thought anybody could be a perpetrator, including my brothers who now I would never-- now that I'm out of that would never ever guess it, but it was like anybody could do it and I don't trust a single person other than me with my child.
Erin Runnion:
Well, then we literally teach that. We need every parent to experience that so that they can actually see it. But you have to go there. You have to allow that moment of “yeah, it's terrible.” But yeah, don't get stuck in the paranoia. You got to go all the way through it. Because when you first learn about the scope of these crimes and the spectrum, it is just astounding. And no, they don't get to go outside. My children sadly did not want to. So that was different.
Suzie Walsh:
I think what Erin said is really important because if you don't acknowledge it and you don't see it, then what are you going to do about it as a parent? And so luckily, I was able to move through that paranoia.
And I would say that if there are professionals out there who guide other parents or who are parents themselves and listening, these are really good launching points for conversations with kids, and not conversations where you're like, don't go and try to find someone's puppy, because kids innately have such an empathy side of them and they want to be helpers and they're taught in school to be helpers.
And so it's finding other ways to tell kids to help care for themselves when you're not there. So I do tell my kids like, hey, if you're with me, I'm 100% in charge of your care and I will make sure you are always safe. When I am not with you, there is some amount of you that is responsible for your safety. And so if someone says, hey, I need help, your job is to say I will find a grownup to help you because a grownup should not ask children for help. They should find another grownup.
And your response shouldn't this is how you help that person, you go find me, or you find another adult. And so, Erin, you talked about how that fear can become paralyzing and I just can't agree enough. There's no other way to describe it. But I encourage people that are listening or working with adults and children to help them move through it and find reasonable ways to have these conversations with kids that are honest and that come with attainable things that kids can do when they are unsure or uncomfortable or in danger.
Erin Runnion:
100%. That is why the Joyful Child Brave Program exists. Because every parent I think wants to teach their kids how to be safe, but we don't want to think about the bad things that could happen and we don't want to scare them. So we end up either not teaching them anything or just trying to scare the heck out of them so that they don't want to do anything. There's got to be a better way.
And so over the years, that's how I ultimately ended up focusing on prevention education because it's scary to us because we know the reality, children don't. So it's actually very empowering for them to know what to do if their safe adult isn't there. And that is what the Joyful Child does. And you can go to the joyfulchild.org actually and we have tips for parents that are free, like a whole little conversation with worksheets that you can print out and guide you through that conversation because sometimes we don't know what to say. So I tried to make it really easy for parents to start this conversation. And you can start them as soon as your children are verbal because it's really never too soon to empower them to trust their own body.
Suzie Walsh:
You established the Joyful Child Foundation many, many years ago. And so I got to use some of those things with my children and have those conversations. And it really brought a lot of light and comfort to “hey, safety is not just about touches, it's about wear your helmet, and look both ways.”
And safety has just this wide range and it made it, like, going through your materials and talking with you and having my children, it made it OK to have these difficult conversations that range again from the helmets to what happens if someone comes talks to you. I encourage people that are listening to go visit your site. It was incredibly helpful for me, and it still is.
Erin Runnion:
Thank you. Thank you. That makes me so happy to hear.
All:
[LAUGHTER]
Crystal Cardenas:
I agree. I use it on my little ones. And I even showed Erin a video of the twins who are two can do the “stop, be brave, be safe. It's so cute.” I want to bring us back full circle. And I want you to tell us about the advice that you have for your younger self as you started into your first position in the child abuse world.
Suzie Walsh:
So one of my life mottos after meeting you Erin was Be Brave and got the words tattooed on my body. It's so significant to me.
[LAUGHTER]
And I think people should have something like that to reflect on and know that it changes over the years. Be Brave many years ago was learn everything you can. Be Brave became hearing children's stories during forensic interviewing. Be Brave became standing in front of hundreds of people at a time to teach them, even though I felt very, very small and insignificant.
Be Brave, it just changed over the years for me. But I think the most important part of that piece and then I would go back and tell myself over and over again and I would tell people in the room today is that the right thing is hard to do. And if you could do anything in terms of being brave, I'm not going to ask you to stand up and change the laws or any of those things, I think the biggest thing for people that are listening that want to be brave that want to contribute to do is to call.
Call if you see something that does not seem right. So many people are afraid of being wrong if they see something suspicious. And I just want to encourage people that if you call and you see something suspicious, the worst-case scenario is you're wrong. That's the worst-case scenario. Most times people are like worst case means that I didn't see it correctly and that I'm not right and that it's not factual and it's like who cares.
No one ever wants to show up and go “jeez, child abuse didn't happen today, that's a real disappointer.” No one wants that. No one in those professions hopes that when they show up it's true. And I realized over the course of my career in dealing with hundreds of people that that first phone call is incredibly hard for people to make because they want to assume the best and think that they're wrong and not ensue that they're biased in some way.
There's all of these pieces that come in. And so I would say that looking back I would tell myself that be brave is going to have lots of different meanings over the years, doing the right thing is going to be difficult to do, and you should still always, always, always do it.
Crystal Cardenas:
Thank you.
Erin Runnion:
Be brave was Samantha's words. So yeah. She wrote it on notes to her brother and Peter Pan, and so, yes, I am very much inspired by those words also. But also I would say sanity first. That was over the years that eventually became a motto of mine for self-care was to just give myself permission to say no. It became a very important thing for me and just reminding myself that our sanity is a lot more fragile than people like to believe
And so yeah, I think after I went to some dark places in the years later knowing that it's OK to take care of myself and giving myself permission to do that is really critical, especially if you are a parent. If you have children in the home, you cannot bring the work in this field home. It's really important. So take care of yourselves. We all need you to be your best self.
Crystal Cardenas:
Thank you. And thank you both so much for being our guest today. You both are truly one of my whys. And I feel really honored to be on this journey with you and to know you and to feel inspired by both of your work on a daily basis. So thank you both. And thank you to all of our listeners, and I hope that this has helped you remember why you're here.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Crystal Cardenas:
To see more of Erin's work and resources, please visit the joyfulchild.org. We're going to add the link to our show notes.
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