Episode 11 Transcript
The Psychology Behind Why Parenting is So Hard
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Monica Borunda:
Noticing how am I doing right now, even when I'm not like in a bad place, when we engage in this kind of practice every day, it lowers our baseline.
Aimee Hanna:
Remember Why You're Here is a podcast created by the Center for Innovation and Resources, where we talk with experts about what started their journey to do work around abuse and healing. To learn more about what we do, visit cirinc.org.
Crystal Cardenas:
Monica Borunda is a bilingual, licensed marriage and family therapist and somatic experiencing practitioner, also an adjunct professor at Cal State, LA, and specializes in child forensic interviewing and parent education. As a trusted trainer, consultant and expert witness in trauma and child abuse, she brings practical insights to our discussions. Join us as we explore Monica's expertise and insights from her private practice in Pasadena.
My dear Monica, thank you so much for being here. I really feel like we're such good friends that this podcast will reflect that. I'm excited to have this conversation with you.
Monica Borunda:
I'm excited to be here. I think you're right. It would be disingenuous to pretend we don't know each other.
Crystal Cardenas:
For those of you who know Monica, she's super, duper passionate. Like that's one of my favorite things about you. And it's also one of the things that I tease you about. You're at conferences and you're like, oh my gosh, they're talking about Polyvagal Theory. I'm so excited. Especially, I feel like your favorite stuff to geek out on is your passion for trauma and the brain and how that works. So I did want to ask you, like where did your passion for that come from?
Monica Borunda:
My goodness, where it came from. I was a therapist and a forensic interviewer before I was a mom, and I always cared about kids and wanted to help and knew there was trauma out there. But then clearly, remember when I learned I was pregnant, all of a sudden something felt like, oh my God, this is really real. Not that it wasn't serious before, but I felt like this kid is going to depend on me. Like I actually get to be the mom this time.
And so immediately started reading everything I could get my hands on in terms of parenting books and stuff like that and then I came across this brain stuff. And I think I've come to understand that even if there is no trauma and even if there's nothing horrible that happens to someone, we still have a huge impact as parents on how they turn out. We are having an impact on their brain and the way it works on the actual structure of the brain and what happens to certain parts of it. I get excited about stuff like that.
Crystal Cardenas:
So one of the I think is now my core memories is listening to you present. And for me, I think Olivia was maybe two or three. And I remember talking with you a lot about her, where she would have tantrums that lasted over an hour. It was exhausting as a parent of like I can't get her to regulate. And I remember it being so impactful to me because you were explaining how her brain is working and which part of her brain she was accessing at that time.
So just tell us a little bit about that, like give us that spiel again.
Monica Borunda:
Oh my goodness, I do remember the conference. But the way that I explain it now is if we have a kid, whether they're two or 12, like mine, and they're having a meltdown, they're going to look different or they may look the same. But if they're having a hard time, then as hard as it is for us, the parents, like, oh my God, my kid is having this big reaction, they're totally dysregulated, it's even harder for them because they have that like inside of them.
So what I like to think about, and sometimes I know it's hard with my own kid, the best thing we can do in that moment is just energetically, I guess, hold whatever it is happening for them and try to keep ourselves regulated. And sometimes it helps just to think she's having a really hard time with it right now. Like right now, it's up to me and what can I bring to her.
Because instead of escalating it and going, don't you talk to me that way, or you better stop that or all of those things that I know I heard when I was a kid, I want to have a different approach. I want her to be able to bring all her feelings, bring all her dysregulation to me. I want to be the safe adult and I want her to know, like I can go to my mom with whatever I'm feeling, even if I can't express it, and she's going to help me regulate. She's going to help me feel better or calm down.
Now, that doesn't mean that all behaviors are OK, but the emotions, all the feelings, all the go, that's OK. I can handle that most of the time.
Crystal Cardenas:
So let's talk about that.
Monica Borunda:
Yes.
Crystal Cardenas:
You know, I have three-year-old twin girls and I have Olivia, who's seven. And especially when I think back to her phase, I always started with good intentions, like, OK, I've got this. I'm going to let her throw the thing so long as she's safe, when I'm going to just sit with her and offer a hug. And if she doesn't want it, then I'm just going to wait. But like your patience wears.
Monica Borunda:
Yeah.
Crystal Cardenas:
So I think that's the stuff that I think is challenging is that and in those moments, I don't always know what's going to trigger me or why it is that I've elevated now after 35 minutes of this not being over. So can you explain a little bit about what's happening within us when that--
Monica Borunda:
Sure. This is the way I think about it. Like we all have a certain capacity I can take like a little tantrum or I can take a medium tantrum or it's going to take a big tantrum to throw me off. So we all have whatever capacity we have. And we're able to say the right things and have the right tone and step in and offer the hug and all the things you're saying until we're at the edge of that.
And so there is the tantrum, there is the kid, there is how they sound and what they're doing and what they're saying to us, you're horrible mom, or whatever, that's that. And I'm going to be able to hold it until it starts pushing on my outer edges or my capacity. And at that point, I think it's important to recognize, not at that point. I think it's important to recognize that we all have that point. And what can I do to make my capacity bigger, to grow my capacity, to grow my container. Because that's, I think, what the task is for a parent. Learn where my edges are and engage in some kind of practice so that when the moment comes, my capacity is larger and I can handle more without being dysregulated or thrown off myself.
And we're using kids in this example, like our own kids. But it can be work. It can be our husbands. It can be a friend. It can be something that's happening in the world. How much can I handle without being thrown off. And so practice is a practice.
Crystal Cardenas:
So what is the practice? So, listen, I went from a mom of one to a mom of three overnight. My container did not expand, OK? It was exactly the same size when those twins were born.
Monica Borunda:
Yeah.
Crystal Cardenas:
So like what are the practices to expand the container?
Monica Borunda:
OK. So the first thing I want to say is I really mean it when I say a practice. It's not, oh, I read this book or I listen to a podcast or I did this thing. And so now I know that when my kid does X, I'm going to say and do these things. It is a practice that we do every day or a few times a week where I get to practice, paying attention to my nervous system and what is happening with me so I can release some stuff. We all have stuff stuck. So I can release some stuff so that doesn't take up room so that I can have more available for them when they need it.
For example, like I live on a hill. I know that if I start walking around the block and go up the hill and then come back, if I ever need to go fast, I can go. But I can't just say, oh, like I know where the hill is, I know that I need to go up it. And when it comes to it, I'm going to do it because when it comes to it, I'm going to be huffing and puffing.
Crystal Cardenas:
Right.
Monica Borunda:
So just knowing what we need to do or what we need to say I don't think is going to be enough in the moment. We need to do it because our nervous system, all the stuff we're carrying from our own work, our own stuff, our own childhood, the things that our parents said and did to us--
Crystal Cardenas:
Right.
Monica Borunda:
--are there. And so we need to pay some attention to that so that we have more capacity for our kids when they're escalated. Does that make sense?
Crystal Cardenas:
It does. It just seems hard when like I can feel myself boiling up where I'm by myself and I don't have my husband to tag me out. The biggest trigger for me is like when other people can see. So like if I'm in a public space, that instantly elevates me.
Monica Borunda:
Totally. Oh my God, what are they going to say?
Crystal Cardenas:
Yes. Like look at your kids. They're so spoiled they don't listen, blah, blah, blah. And so then like what can I reach for when I'm already there and I can't sub out.
Monica Borunda:
Yeah. No, that's a really good point. Because sometimes we have the husband to tap us out or the grandma or someone, and sometimes we're all they got. And so it's really important the practice I was talking about to know ourselves, to know our own body, our own nervous system, so that we can recognize when we are escalating, so keeping a tab or just noticing how am I doing right now, even when I'm not like in a bad place because I may come home in a bad mood from work. And I need to recognize how that impacts my mood, my energy, my regulation, or lack of, so that I can go, oh, you know what, I'd better turn some music on because I'm already feeling shaky and my kid hasn't done anything yet.
So that's one thing that I think we need to get better at, when is it when I notice that I'm escalating? When am I noticing the change in me? When we engage in this kind of practice every day, it lowers our baseline.
So that when we start we're at a lower level of dysregulation or we're more regulated and do something when we're, let's say, at a level two or three or four or five and not go, well, now I'm at a 9.9 and I have no other option than to explode. And it's because I was a 9.9 and there was no one there with me to tap out. So then again, we start lower so it takes longer. And so there's this, I think, different ways maybe to look at that.
Crystal Cardenas:
No, that totally makes sense. So let's talk about that. So we hit the explosion. I yelled at my kid pretty bad, sent her to her room.
Monica Borunda:
I've never done that at all, ever.
Crystal Cardenas:
And then afterwards, the guilt comes in of like I realize-- or like you said, I was already at an eight when I walked into the door. And, yes, she acted out, but it didn't merit that reaction.
Monica Borunda:
Yes.
Crystal Cardenas:
So what do I do afterwards to fix that?
Monica Borunda:
Yeah. No, I love the question because I think there is a lot of like, oh my God, I just messed up. And I don't know if it was just my parents, but the way it used to be was like, you don't apologize to your kids. You don't admit that you did something wrong. And the way I've come to understand it now is, and this is what I do with my own daughter, is when I mess up, like this morning on my way to school, I was like, hey, I wanted to talk to you about what happened last night. And I will say to her, I messed up.
Because what I want to be able to do when I talk to her, I want to own it. My fault, I shouldn't have done that, it's because of work, had nothing to do with you. And I want to let her know that maybe, like depending on what I saw, like that must have been really scary for you when I yelled, or I noticed you got mad and turned around and walked away. Of course, I would be mad if someone did that to me too. So we want to like own our part in it and validate whatever they may have experienced. When that happens.
I always end with her, like checking in, not checking in on the fact that I got mad and now I'm apologizing, or that like are you going to forgive me, or like what she did or what happened at work. I'm checking in on, like how are we. And I tell her I'm trying to be a better mom. And she often says, I forgive you. We'll talk a little bit more. And then before, like she got out of the car at school, I said, hey, how are we? Are we OK? Because there are times when she's like, we're totally good. I love you. And there are times when she's like, we're kind of good, but I'm still a little mad. So I'm almost like taking the temperature on how the relationship is, which ultimately is the most important thing to me.
Crystal Cardenas:
OK. I know you have to feel the same thing as I do. Like everything you're saying, I'm like, yes, I get it 100%, like that's what I try to follow. And then I have my family who says, like [SPANISH], like this is why she acts the way she does. It was my fault because I'm too soft on her, is what they see. And so, OK, she's tantruming even as a little girl, like two years old.
Monica Borunda:
Yeah.
Crystal Cardenas:
I'm like, this is normal. We know this is a toddler reacting. And so I'll let her react in that space. And all of my family is like, I can't believe that. Put her--
Monica Borunda:
You let her do that.
Crystal Cardenas:
Right. And then they start, like projecting, like she's going to be awful when she's older. So how do you like mix those worlds, because it's really difficult. And then I think like, well, we all came out good, like we all have professions. My parents did something also. I was scared of my dad.
Monica Borunda:
Yes.
Crystal Cardenas:
So afraid. So afraid.
Monica Borunda:
Oh my God, there's so much there. I absolutely remember when Alexa was little. She would be tired. She would have a tantrum and then like closer to nap time. So we would see it. We would hear it. And my brother, more than anyone else, would be like, what she needs is a good-- and she's so spoiled and you let her get away with everything. And I can't even imagine what she's going to turn out to be.
And there's also the-- our parents did that to us, too, and we turned out fine. I have students who say this in my class. And I am not going to get into it, but I always want to ask like, well, what does it mean that we're fine. Let's talk about what it means to be fine. Let's talk about how much we hold in, how much we drink, how our relationships are, how close we feel to people, how safe we feel in intimate relationships. Let's talk about how we argue and how we navigate conflict. And then you can tell me you're fine.
Crystal Cardenas:
Right, yes.
Monica Borunda:
Because having a job and a roof over your head, I don't know, that means we're fine.
Crystal Cardenas:
Right.
Monica Borunda:
So that's one piece that I clearly remember my brother saying. And my mom was just like, I don't know what you're doing, but you guys did not do that when you were little. And at one point, I said to her, why do you think we didn't do that? And she was like, well, what do you mean, because you were a good kid. And I was like, well, why do you think we were good kids? And she didn't know.
And I said, I was afraid of you. And she was like, no, you respected me. And I was like, I was afraid of you. There's a difference between respect and being afraid. And respect is this. You respect someone, you trust someone, you value their opinions, you want to follow them in a sense. And fear is, I'm scared of you. I don't know what you're going to do. So I need to manage myself so I don't tick you off.
I think it was really hard for her to hear that I was afraid of her but it was true. And I know that is one thing I don't want my daughter to be. When we have a kid who's afraid of their parent, guess what they're going to do during adolescence when they're doing stuff? They're not even going to tell us because they're like, I'm not going to tell my mom. I don't know what she's going to say or do.
So it's hard in the moment because you have-- I had my brother in law, my mom. I knew what they were thinking. They would say it. And I had to almost like be strong enough to say, I know that I don't want a parent the way I was parented and I know what's happening in her brain. And like I needed to almost trust myself in what I knew and my belief and cross my fingers and hope that it worked.
Crystal Cardenas:
Right.
Monica Borunda:
And I would explain to them, like, oh, she's tired, she needs a nap, or, oh, this is what's happening and this is a better approach. And we're trying to meet them as best we can, having not had the models of that. The other moment that I clearly remember when I was pregnant, I do parenting workshops at Cal State, LA. I'm dragging my mom over. She has to come like that's all there is to it. And so I would go pick her up. I'd take her, she would say, sit quietly in class, and then I would drive her home.
And so one day in particular, we were walking to the car from class and she had tears in her eyes. And I was like, what's up? And she said, I just feel so guilty. I didn't know what I was doing. We were so ignorant. I wish I would have been more like you and your sister with you guys. But I didn't know any better because they weren't affectionate. And we are like, oh my God, we want to eat our kids up.
And that's the other thing is that's important to recognize. They did the best they could with what they knew and their own experiences and what was happening at the time and all the stresses they had.
Crystal Cardenas:
So I want to shift gears a little bit just because we can't control the trauma that our kids will experience. I mean, we can try to some extent. Trust me, I try all the time.
Monica Borunda:
Of course, we try.
Crystal Cardenas:
So I have one particular incident. Olivia's six years old. She's practicing softball during the day. There's a shooting that happens, like right next to the park. The gang members run through the park with their guns as she's practicing. Luckily, I had just taken the twins home, and then I had to deal with that trauma of her being afraid to go back to the park, of trying to explain why somebody would have a gun. Now, I keep thinking about how much they practice like lockdowns in school and that re-triggering. How do we help them with that when it is a reality that it's--
Monica Borunda:
Yeah.
Crystal Cardenas:
--we're not really safe, even though we want to think that we are?
Monica Borunda:
So I feel like you have two things there that I think are important to think about. One is she had this experience when she was practicing soccer and this thing happened. And what we know is that in that moment of her recognizing we are in danger right now, there is a very real threat, whether she knew what it was or wasn't.
Crystal Cardenas:
Right.
Monica Borunda:
To some degree, she understood this is not OK. And so what we know happens in that moment is that when the brain notices like something's up right now, is there are these chemicals and this physiological reaction in the body, there's all this I guess you can think of it as like energy to either fight or flee or hide or something. And what can happen is that night or in the next few weeks or days, that is still stuck in the body and so you may see it come up.
And we need to have ways to allow that little body, that little nervous system to feel this and let it move through so that she gets rid of it. There was an activation and I had to hide. So I had to like hold that in. And maybe when I'm more relaxed or maybe when I see something or I think-- or I see my baseball glove or any trigger, it's going to come up again and I'm going to feel afraid or I'm going to feel whatever. That's one thing that I think is important to look at.
The other piece is the scary part. How do we talk to kids about the active shooter drills? And I don't know if I have an answer for that. I know that they're trying to teach them what to do. So sometimes when I have to explain things, I think of it as like prevention. There's a reason we wear our helmets when we ride a bike and we know how to stop, drop and roll and we know how to-- whatever. And I don't like that they call it an active shooter drill because that's in the name but sometimes that a situation may happen and we need to lock ourselves in our room, and we need to. But I don't know how we deal with what's happening in the world.
Crystal Cardenas:
I mean, guess I gave you like $1 million question, but it's something that I've like thought that parenting would get easier as they get older. But it is so much harder in a totally different way.
Monica Borunda:
In a different way.
Crystal Cardenas:
And it's because I want to be honest, but I also want to protect her.
Monica Borunda:
We want to be honest, we want to protect them and we don't want to raise their anxiety, so much about all the stuff that's happening that they're walking around thinking at any moment something horrible is going to happen. That's hard. It doesn't seem to be getting easier, I'll tell you. I'm almost at 13.
Crystal Cardenas:
Oh my goodness. OK. So speaking of that, I mean, you've been a forensic interviewer for-- I don't want to say forever because, yeah, 18 years.
Monica Borunda:
It feels like forever.
Crystal Cardenas:
I know that you've seen and heard a lot of abuse and trauma in children. How do you think that's changed you as a person and as a mother?
Monica Borunda:
Again, the moment I learned I was pregnant, everything just seemed a lot more serious. I think in two ways. The one is that from the moment she was born and we were changing diapers, we have always talked to her and named her parts what they're called. That's your nose. That's your elbow. That's your vulva. That's your buttocks. We don't use cute names. It doesn't serve them well.
I've had people say, well, why do they need to know that? And it'll be easier for them to later come over and say, hey, I've got a little itch on the left side of my vulva. Then I don't even know how to tell you this because I don't have words for it. And it's down there in my private parts and we have no-- like it's what their body parts are called.
I have been talking to Alexa about consent from the moment she started walking around. And people are afraid to talk to children about their bodies and body parts and child sexual abuse because they think they need to talk about sex. And these horrible things that happen to children. And we know what's happening and we want to protect them.
But I think it's important to understand that probably more than 80% of the conversations that we need to have that are going to protect them from child sexual abuse have nothing to do with sex or rape or sodomy. They have to do with like you're the boss of your body. And you get to decide who sees and handles your body in what way all the time, no matter what, you're the boss.
So I've done, again, a ton of reading, a ton of educating myself on how to have these conversations with her in a way that is about her and her body and consent and what feels good and what feels uncomfortable, and/or like she always asks me to rub her back. Always, mommy, can you rub my back?
And I'm very clear about like, well, how do you want me to rub it? How much pressure? Do you want me to like rub it like this or do you want me to rub it like with my nails, so that she begins to distinguish between different types of touch and how it feels to her and what feels good instead of, oh, I think you should like it like this because I like it like this. I'm going to talk to her about her body too so she can know her body, what her body wants, what it doesn't want, what it feels grossed out or disgusted by someone or something and she needs to get away.
The other thing that it has also made me is probably a little paranoid. My husband will be like, we're at Disneyland. You're paranoid. And I'll say, yeah, we're at Disneyland and we don't know who the child predators are. And we know that they're everywhere and we know that they're perfectly nice people that we know and that we'd never suspect of. So I'm not paranoid. like you can't go anywhere. You can't talk to anyone. I'm just vigilant.
I took her to a birthday party once and I'm always going, OK, that adult belongs to that kid. That kid belongs to that adult. That adult hasn't had any kid come in and check with them in the last 20 to 30 minutes. And he's just sitting there squatting in the little play gym looking around. And so then I'm paying more attention. That's what I'm keeping an eye on right now, not going to do anything, but it's important. Why is there an adult at a children's place who doesn't have any children with him?
Crystal Cardenas:
So what you're saying is I'm normal then? Because--
Monica Borunda:
We are totally normal, whatever normal means.
Crystal Cardenas:
Normal and--
Monica Borunda:
Normal, yeah.
Crystal Cardenas:
So because I can't ever shut it off, I really can't.
Monica Borunda:
And this is really sad, especially with our culture, is we don't talk about this stuff and we just see it from generation to generation. And I don't know about you but I'm like sick of it.
Crystal Cardenas:
Me too.
Monica Borunda:
And I refuse to be complicit and be like, well, let me just pretend that everything's OK because it's not.
Crystal Cardenas:
Oh, I know. I'm like the first one to tattle. Like, listen, I don't care if it's my somebody steal uncle, cousin. Like he's giving me a vibe.
Monica Borunda:
Yeah. I mean there are trainings where they're telling you how to call it out, just saying, hey, that kid just told you they don't want to hug and you keep pushing for it. You're violating their limits. This is the other thing I tell people. People who get it are going to be like, I never thought of it that way. You're right. I want to be a safe adult for your kid. And people who don't get it or have different intentions are going to make fun of you. They're going to say, oh my God, you're such a drama queen. You're always-- and at some point, you can draw a boundary and be like, we're not coming around.
Crystal Cardenas:
Yeah. I mean I'm totally with you.
Monica Borunda:
It's the only way. There's way too much child sexual abuse in our community.
Crystal Cardenas:
Like I said earlier, like, one of the things that makes you my favorite is how passionate you want to be. How is it in a field where we have so much burnout that you keep that passion and energy going, God?
Monica Borunda:
Oh my God, I've never been asked that. It's really weird because I have like these two maybe conflicting answers. So one of them is I've been doing this since before I was a mom. And I've sat with kids in a forensic interview and heard all the details of this abuse, of this trauma and how they felt about it and the betrayal when it's someone who's supposed to love and protect you. I've heard all that. I've seen the impact on them when I see some of these kids in therapy, some of these adults in therapy. I know the long term effects. We need to talk about this because we need to stop this. That's one.
The other part, as I think about my daughter growing up, is I want this place to be a safer place for her, or her peers, or her friends. I want to do everything that I can to help my daughter know how to distinguish between like this doesn't feel right, let me get out, and like this is OK and this person is respecting a boundary that I set, and at the same time, I want to see if I can do anything to change it in the world.
Crystal Cardenas:
Yeah. And that's one of the big reasons why we started this podcast, is we want people to remember why they're here, why they're doing that work, because it can feel like you against the world, and it's so big.
My last question to you is, for our listeners who are just starting their career, what advice would you give to them?
Monica Borunda:
When I finished school and I was trying to decide like, do I take this job, which doesn't pay great, or do I do this other thing that pays more but I'm not as excited about? And someone back then told me, she said, do what you love, the money will come. And I was like, I don't know about that. And I'm not saying I'm rich, by any means. And I know they need to pay their rent, I know they need to pay student loans and all that stuff, but I do think that if you do what you love, it'll come through and people will see it and they'll be like, I want you.
Crystal Cardenas:
It's inspiring and it's contagious to be around, people like you who fight the good fight. Thank you so much, Monica. You really did give me all the feels.
Monica Borunda:
Thank you for having me. I love talking to you and I love talking about this. So there's no better combination.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Crystal Cardenas:
Learn even more from Monica and listen to the bonus episode now.
Listen to the episode here: https://linktr.ee/rwyh
Episode 11 Transcript
The Psychology Behind Why Parenting is So Hard
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Monica Borunda:
Noticing how am I doing right now, even when I'm not like in a bad place, when we engage in this kind of practice every day, it lowers our baseline.
Aimee Hanna:
Remember Why You're Here is a podcast created by the Center for Innovation and Resources, where we talk with experts about what started their journey to do work around abuse and healing. To learn more about what we do, visit cirinc.org.
Crystal Cardenas:
Monica Borunda is a bilingual, licensed marriage and family therapist and somatic experiencing practitioner, also an adjunct professor at Cal State, LA, and specializes in child forensic interviewing and parent education. As a trusted trainer, consultant and expert witness in trauma and child abuse, she brings practical insights to our discussions. Join us as we explore Monica's expertise and insights from her private practice in Pasadena.
My dear Monica, thank you so much for being here. I really feel like we're such good friends that this podcast will reflect that. I'm excited to have this conversation with you.
Monica Borunda:
I'm excited to be here. I think you're right. It would be disingenuous to pretend we don't know each other.
Crystal Cardenas:
For those of you who know Monica, she's super, duper passionate. Like that's one of my favorite things about you. And it's also one of the things that I tease you about. You're at conferences and you're like, oh my gosh, they're talking about Polyvagal Theory. I'm so excited. Especially, I feel like your favorite stuff to geek out on is your passion for trauma and the brain and how that works. So I did want to ask you, like where did your passion for that come from?
Monica Borunda:
My goodness, where it came from. I was a therapist and a forensic interviewer before I was a mom, and I always cared about kids and wanted to help and knew there was trauma out there. But then clearly, remember when I learned I was pregnant, all of a sudden something felt like, oh my God, this is really real. Not that it wasn't serious before, but I felt like this kid is going to depend on me. Like I actually get to be the mom this time.
And so immediately started reading everything I could get my hands on in terms of parenting books and stuff like that and then I came across this brain stuff. And I think I've come to understand that even if there is no trauma and even if there's nothing horrible that happens to someone, we still have a huge impact as parents on how they turn out. We are having an impact on their brain and the way it works on the actual structure of the brain and what happens to certain parts of it. I get excited about stuff like that.
Crystal Cardenas:
So one of the I think is now my core memories is listening to you present. And for me, I think Olivia was maybe two or three. And I remember talking with you a lot about her, where she would have tantrums that lasted over an hour. It was exhausting as a parent of like I can't get her to regulate. And I remember it being so impactful to me because you were explaining how her brain is working and which part of her brain she was accessing at that time.
So just tell us a little bit about that, like give us that spiel again.
Monica Borunda:
Oh my goodness, I do remember the conference. But the way that I explain it now is if we have a kid, whether they're two or 12, like mine, and they're having a meltdown, they're going to look different or they may look the same. But if they're having a hard time, then as hard as it is for us, the parents, like, oh my God, my kid is having this big reaction, they're totally dysregulated, it's even harder for them because they have that like inside of them.
So what I like to think about, and sometimes I know it's hard with my own kid, the best thing we can do in that moment is just energetically, I guess, hold whatever it is happening for them and try to keep ourselves regulated. And sometimes it helps just to think she's having a really hard time with it right now. Like right now, it's up to me and what can I bring to her.
Because instead of escalating it and going, don't you talk to me that way, or you better stop that or all of those things that I know I heard when I was a kid, I want to have a different approach. I want her to be able to bring all her feelings, bring all her dysregulation to me. I want to be the safe adult and I want her to know, like I can go to my mom with whatever I'm feeling, even if I can't express it, and she's going to help me regulate. She's going to help me feel better or calm down.
Now, that doesn't mean that all behaviors are OK, but the emotions, all the feelings, all the go, that's OK. I can handle that most of the time.
Crystal Cardenas:
So let's talk about that.
Monica Borunda:
Yes.
Crystal Cardenas:
You know, I have three-year-old twin girls and I have Olivia, who's seven. And especially when I think back to her phase, I always started with good intentions, like, OK, I've got this. I'm going to let her throw the thing so long as she's safe, when I'm going to just sit with her and offer a hug. And if she doesn't want it, then I'm just going to wait. But like your patience wears.
Monica Borunda:
Yeah.
Crystal Cardenas:
So I think that's the stuff that I think is challenging is that and in those moments, I don't always know what's going to trigger me or why it is that I've elevated now after 35 minutes of this not being over. So can you explain a little bit about what's happening within us when that--
Monica Borunda:
Sure. This is the way I think about it. Like we all have a certain capacity I can take like a little tantrum or I can take a medium tantrum or it's going to take a big tantrum to throw me off. So we all have whatever capacity we have. And we're able to say the right things and have the right tone and step in and offer the hug and all the things you're saying until we're at the edge of that.
And so there is the tantrum, there is the kid, there is how they sound and what they're doing and what they're saying to us, you're horrible mom, or whatever, that's that. And I'm going to be able to hold it until it starts pushing on my outer edges or my capacity. And at that point, I think it's important to recognize, not at that point. I think it's important to recognize that we all have that point. And what can I do to make my capacity bigger, to grow my capacity, to grow my container. Because that's, I think, what the task is for a parent. Learn where my edges are and engage in some kind of practice so that when the moment comes, my capacity is larger and I can handle more without being dysregulated or thrown off myself.
And we're using kids in this example, like our own kids. But it can be work. It can be our husbands. It can be a friend. It can be something that's happening in the world. How much can I handle without being thrown off. And so practice is a practice.
Crystal Cardenas:
So what is the practice? So, listen, I went from a mom of one to a mom of three overnight. My container did not expand, OK? It was exactly the same size when those twins were born.
Monica Borunda:
Yeah.
Crystal Cardenas:
So like what are the practices to expand the container?
Monica Borunda:
OK. So the first thing I want to say is I really mean it when I say a practice. It's not, oh, I read this book or I listen to a podcast or I did this thing. And so now I know that when my kid does X, I'm going to say and do these things. It is a practice that we do every day or a few times a week where I get to practice, paying attention to my nervous system and what is happening with me so I can release some stuff. We all have stuff stuck. So I can release some stuff so that doesn't take up room so that I can have more available for them when they need it.
For example, like I live on a hill. I know that if I start walking around the block and go up the hill and then come back, if I ever need to go fast, I can go. But I can't just say, oh, like I know where the hill is, I know that I need to go up it. And when it comes to it, I'm going to do it because when it comes to it, I'm going to be huffing and puffing.
Crystal Cardenas:
Right.
Monica Borunda:
So just knowing what we need to do or what we need to say I don't think is going to be enough in the moment. We need to do it because our nervous system, all the stuff we're carrying from our own work, our own stuff, our own childhood, the things that our parents said and did to us--
Crystal Cardenas:
Right.
Monica Borunda:
--are there. And so we need to pay some attention to that so that we have more capacity for our kids when they're escalated. Does that make sense?
Crystal Cardenas:
It does. It just seems hard when like I can feel myself boiling up where I'm by myself and I don't have my husband to tag me out. The biggest trigger for me is like when other people can see. So like if I'm in a public space, that instantly elevates me.
Monica Borunda:
Totally. Oh my God, what are they going to say?
Crystal Cardenas:
Yes. Like look at your kids. They're so spoiled they don't listen, blah, blah, blah. And so then like what can I reach for when I'm already there and I can't sub out.
Monica Borunda:
Yeah. No, that's a really good point. Because sometimes we have the husband to tap us out or the grandma or someone, and sometimes we're all they got. And so it's really important the practice I was talking about to know ourselves, to know our own body, our own nervous system, so that we can recognize when we are escalating, so keeping a tab or just noticing how am I doing right now, even when I'm not like in a bad place because I may come home in a bad mood from work. And I need to recognize how that impacts my mood, my energy, my regulation, or lack of, so that I can go, oh, you know what, I'd better turn some music on because I'm already feeling shaky and my kid hasn't done anything yet.
So that's one thing that I think we need to get better at, when is it when I notice that I'm escalating? When am I noticing the change in me? When we engage in this kind of practice every day, it lowers our baseline.
So that when we start we're at a lower level of dysregulation or we're more regulated and do something when we're, let's say, at a level two or three or four or five and not go, well, now I'm at a 9.9 and I have no other option than to explode. And it's because I was a 9.9 and there was no one there with me to tap out. So then again, we start lower so it takes longer. And so there's this, I think, different ways maybe to look at that.
Crystal Cardenas:
No, that totally makes sense. So let's talk about that. So we hit the explosion. I yelled at my kid pretty bad, sent her to her room.
Monica Borunda:
I've never done that at all, ever.
Crystal Cardenas:
And then afterwards, the guilt comes in of like I realize-- or like you said, I was already at an eight when I walked into the door. And, yes, she acted out, but it didn't merit that reaction.
Monica Borunda:
Yes.
Crystal Cardenas:
So what do I do afterwards to fix that?
Monica Borunda:
Yeah. No, I love the question because I think there is a lot of like, oh my God, I just messed up. And I don't know if it was just my parents, but the way it used to be was like, you don't apologize to your kids. You don't admit that you did something wrong. And the way I've come to understand it now is, and this is what I do with my own daughter, is when I mess up, like this morning on my way to school, I was like, hey, I wanted to talk to you about what happened last night. And I will say to her, I messed up.
Because what I want to be able to do when I talk to her, I want to own it. My fault, I shouldn't have done that, it's because of work, had nothing to do with you. And I want to let her know that maybe, like depending on what I saw, like that must have been really scary for you when I yelled, or I noticed you got mad and turned around and walked away. Of course, I would be mad if someone did that to me too. So we want to like own our part in it and validate whatever they may have experienced. When that happens.
I always end with her, like checking in, not checking in on the fact that I got mad and now I'm apologizing, or that like are you going to forgive me, or like what she did or what happened at work. I'm checking in on, like how are we. And I tell her I'm trying to be a better mom. And she often says, I forgive you. We'll talk a little bit more. And then before, like she got out of the car at school, I said, hey, how are we? Are we OK? Because there are times when she's like, we're totally good. I love you. And there are times when she's like, we're kind of good, but I'm still a little mad. So I'm almost like taking the temperature on how the relationship is, which ultimately is the most important thing to me.
Crystal Cardenas:
OK. I know you have to feel the same thing as I do. Like everything you're saying, I'm like, yes, I get it 100%, like that's what I try to follow. And then I have my family who says, like [SPANISH], like this is why she acts the way she does. It was my fault because I'm too soft on her, is what they see. And so, OK, she's tantruming even as a little girl, like two years old.
Monica Borunda:
Yeah.
Crystal Cardenas:
I'm like, this is normal. We know this is a toddler reacting. And so I'll let her react in that space. And all of my family is like, I can't believe that. Put her--
Monica Borunda:
You let her do that.
Crystal Cardenas:
Right. And then they start, like projecting, like she's going to be awful when she's older. So how do you like mix those worlds, because it's really difficult. And then I think like, well, we all came out good, like we all have professions. My parents did something also. I was scared of my dad.
Monica Borunda:
Yes.
Crystal Cardenas:
So afraid. So afraid.
Monica Borunda:
Oh my God, there's so much there. I absolutely remember when Alexa was little. She would be tired. She would have a tantrum and then like closer to nap time. So we would see it. We would hear it. And my brother, more than anyone else, would be like, what she needs is a good-- and she's so spoiled and you let her get away with everything. And I can't even imagine what she's going to turn out to be.
And there's also the-- our parents did that to us, too, and we turned out fine. I have students who say this in my class. And I am not going to get into it, but I always want to ask like, well, what does it mean that we're fine. Let's talk about what it means to be fine. Let's talk about how much we hold in, how much we drink, how our relationships are, how close we feel to people, how safe we feel in intimate relationships. Let's talk about how we argue and how we navigate conflict. And then you can tell me you're fine.
Crystal Cardenas:
Right, yes.
Monica Borunda:
Because having a job and a roof over your head, I don't know, that means we're fine.
Crystal Cardenas:
Right.
Monica Borunda:
So that's one piece that I clearly remember my brother saying. And my mom was just like, I don't know what you're doing, but you guys did not do that when you were little. And at one point, I said to her, why do you think we didn't do that? And she was like, well, what do you mean, because you were a good kid. And I was like, well, why do you think we were good kids? And she didn't know.
And I said, I was afraid of you. And she was like, no, you respected me. And I was like, I was afraid of you. There's a difference between respect and being afraid. And respect is this. You respect someone, you trust someone, you value their opinions, you want to follow them in a sense. And fear is, I'm scared of you. I don't know what you're going to do. So I need to manage myself so I don't tick you off.
I think it was really hard for her to hear that I was afraid of her but it was true. And I know that is one thing I don't want my daughter to be. When we have a kid who's afraid of their parent, guess what they're going to do during adolescence when they're doing stuff? They're not even going to tell us because they're like, I'm not going to tell my mom. I don't know what she's going to say or do.
So it's hard in the moment because you have-- I had my brother in law, my mom. I knew what they were thinking. They would say it. And I had to almost like be strong enough to say, I know that I don't want a parent the way I was parented and I know what's happening in her brain. And like I needed to almost trust myself in what I knew and my belief and cross my fingers and hope that it worked.
Crystal Cardenas:
Right.
Monica Borunda:
And I would explain to them, like, oh, she's tired, she needs a nap, or, oh, this is what's happening and this is a better approach. And we're trying to meet them as best we can, having not had the models of that. The other moment that I clearly remember when I was pregnant, I do parenting workshops at Cal State, LA. I'm dragging my mom over. She has to come like that's all there is to it. And so I would go pick her up. I'd take her, she would say, sit quietly in class, and then I would drive her home.
And so one day in particular, we were walking to the car from class and she had tears in her eyes. And I was like, what's up? And she said, I just feel so guilty. I didn't know what I was doing. We were so ignorant. I wish I would have been more like you and your sister with you guys. But I didn't know any better because they weren't affectionate. And we are like, oh my God, we want to eat our kids up.
And that's the other thing is that's important to recognize. They did the best they could with what they knew and their own experiences and what was happening at the time and all the stresses they had.
Crystal Cardenas:
So I want to shift gears a little bit just because we can't control the trauma that our kids will experience. I mean, we can try to some extent. Trust me, I try all the time.
Monica Borunda:
Of course, we try.
Crystal Cardenas:
So I have one particular incident. Olivia's six years old. She's practicing softball during the day. There's a shooting that happens, like right next to the park. The gang members run through the park with their guns as she's practicing. Luckily, I had just taken the twins home, and then I had to deal with that trauma of her being afraid to go back to the park, of trying to explain why somebody would have a gun. Now, I keep thinking about how much they practice like lockdowns in school and that re-triggering. How do we help them with that when it is a reality that it's--
Monica Borunda:
Yeah.
Crystal Cardenas:
--we're not really safe, even though we want to think that we are?
Monica Borunda:
So I feel like you have two things there that I think are important to think about. One is she had this experience when she was practicing soccer and this thing happened. And what we know is that in that moment of her recognizing we are in danger right now, there is a very real threat, whether she knew what it was or wasn't.
Crystal Cardenas:
Right.
Monica Borunda:
To some degree, she understood this is not OK. And so what we know happens in that moment is that when the brain notices like something's up right now, is there are these chemicals and this physiological reaction in the body, there's all this I guess you can think of it as like energy to either fight or flee or hide or something. And what can happen is that night or in the next few weeks or days, that is still stuck in the body and so you may see it come up.
And we need to have ways to allow that little body, that little nervous system to feel this and let it move through so that she gets rid of it. There was an activation and I had to hide. So I had to like hold that in. And maybe when I'm more relaxed or maybe when I see something or I think-- or I see my baseball glove or any trigger, it's going to come up again and I'm going to feel afraid or I'm going to feel whatever. That's one thing that I think is important to look at.
The other piece is the scary part. How do we talk to kids about the active shooter drills? And I don't know if I have an answer for that. I know that they're trying to teach them what to do. So sometimes when I have to explain things, I think of it as like prevention. There's a reason we wear our helmets when we ride a bike and we know how to stop, drop and roll and we know how to-- whatever. And I don't like that they call it an active shooter drill because that's in the name but sometimes that a situation may happen and we need to lock ourselves in our room, and we need to. But I don't know how we deal with what's happening in the world.
Crystal Cardenas:
I mean, guess I gave you like $1 million question, but it's something that I've like thought that parenting would get easier as they get older. But it is so much harder in a totally different way.
Monica Borunda:
In a different way.
Crystal Cardenas:
And it's because I want to be honest, but I also want to protect her.
Monica Borunda:
We want to be honest, we want to protect them and we don't want to raise their anxiety, so much about all the stuff that's happening that they're walking around thinking at any moment something horrible is going to happen. That's hard. It doesn't seem to be getting easier, I'll tell you. I'm almost at 13.
Crystal Cardenas:
Oh my goodness. OK. So speaking of that, I mean, you've been a forensic interviewer for-- I don't want to say forever because, yeah, 18 years.
Monica Borunda:
It feels like forever.
Crystal Cardenas:
I know that you've seen and heard a lot of abuse and trauma in children. How do you think that's changed you as a person and as a mother?
Monica Borunda:
Again, the moment I learned I was pregnant, everything just seemed a lot more serious. I think in two ways. The one is that from the moment she was born and we were changing diapers, we have always talked to her and named her parts what they're called. That's your nose. That's your elbow. That's your vulva. That's your buttocks. We don't use cute names. It doesn't serve them well.
I've had people say, well, why do they need to know that? And it'll be easier for them to later come over and say, hey, I've got a little itch on the left side of my vulva. Then I don't even know how to tell you this because I don't have words for it. And it's down there in my private parts and we have no-- like it's what their body parts are called.
I have been talking to Alexa about consent from the moment she started walking around. And people are afraid to talk to children about their bodies and body parts and child sexual abuse because they think they need to talk about sex. And these horrible things that happen to children. And we know what's happening and we want to protect them.
But I think it's important to understand that probably more than 80% of the conversations that we need to have that are going to protect them from child sexual abuse have nothing to do with sex or rape or sodomy. They have to do with like you're the boss of your body. And you get to decide who sees and handles your body in what way all the time, no matter what, you're the boss.
So I've done, again, a ton of reading, a ton of educating myself on how to have these conversations with her in a way that is about her and her body and consent and what feels good and what feels uncomfortable, and/or like she always asks me to rub her back. Always, mommy, can you rub my back?
And I'm very clear about like, well, how do you want me to rub it? How much pressure? Do you want me to like rub it like this or do you want me to rub it like with my nails, so that she begins to distinguish between different types of touch and how it feels to her and what feels good instead of, oh, I think you should like it like this because I like it like this. I'm going to talk to her about her body too so she can know her body, what her body wants, what it doesn't want, what it feels grossed out or disgusted by someone or something and she needs to get away.
The other thing that it has also made me is probably a little paranoid. My husband will be like, we're at Disneyland. You're paranoid. And I'll say, yeah, we're at Disneyland and we don't know who the child predators are. And we know that they're everywhere and we know that they're perfectly nice people that we know and that we'd never suspect of. So I'm not paranoid. like you can't go anywhere. You can't talk to anyone. I'm just vigilant.
I took her to a birthday party once and I'm always going, OK, that adult belongs to that kid. That kid belongs to that adult. That adult hasn't had any kid come in and check with them in the last 20 to 30 minutes. And he's just sitting there squatting in the little play gym looking around. And so then I'm paying more attention. That's what I'm keeping an eye on right now, not going to do anything, but it's important. Why is there an adult at a children's place who doesn't have any children with him?
Crystal Cardenas:
So what you're saying is I'm normal then? Because--
Monica Borunda:
We are totally normal, whatever normal means.
Crystal Cardenas:
Normal and--
Monica Borunda:
Normal, yeah.
Crystal Cardenas:
So because I can't ever shut it off, I really can't.
Monica Borunda:
And this is really sad, especially with our culture, is we don't talk about this stuff and we just see it from generation to generation. And I don't know about you but I'm like sick of it.
Crystal Cardenas:
Me too.
Monica Borunda:
And I refuse to be complicit and be like, well, let me just pretend that everything's OK because it's not.
Crystal Cardenas:
Oh, I know. I'm like the first one to tattle. Like, listen, I don't care if it's my somebody steal uncle, cousin. Like he's giving me a vibe.
Monica Borunda:
Yeah. I mean there are trainings where they're telling you how to call it out, just saying, hey, that kid just told you they don't want to hug and you keep pushing for it. You're violating their limits. This is the other thing I tell people. People who get it are going to be like, I never thought of it that way. You're right. I want to be a safe adult for your kid. And people who don't get it or have different intentions are going to make fun of you. They're going to say, oh my God, you're such a drama queen. You're always-- and at some point, you can draw a boundary and be like, we're not coming around.
Crystal Cardenas:
Yeah. I mean I'm totally with you.
Monica Borunda:
It's the only way. There's way too much child sexual abuse in our community.
Crystal Cardenas:
Like I said earlier, like, one of the things that makes you my favorite is how passionate you want to be. How is it in a field where we have so much burnout that you keep that passion and energy going, God?
Monica Borunda:
Oh my God, I've never been asked that. It's really weird because I have like these two maybe conflicting answers. So one of them is I've been doing this since before I was a mom. And I've sat with kids in a forensic interview and heard all the details of this abuse, of this trauma and how they felt about it and the betrayal when it's someone who's supposed to love and protect you. I've heard all that. I've seen the impact on them when I see some of these kids in therapy, some of these adults in therapy. I know the long term effects. We need to talk about this because we need to stop this. That's one.
The other part, as I think about my daughter growing up, is I want this place to be a safer place for her, or her peers, or her friends. I want to do everything that I can to help my daughter know how to distinguish between like this doesn't feel right, let me get out, and like this is OK and this person is respecting a boundary that I set, and at the same time, I want to see if I can do anything to change it in the world.
Crystal Cardenas:
Yeah. And that's one of the big reasons why we started this podcast, is we want people to remember why they're here, why they're doing that work, because it can feel like you against the world, and it's so big.
My last question to you is, for our listeners who are just starting their career, what advice would you give to them?
Monica Borunda:
When I finished school and I was trying to decide like, do I take this job, which doesn't pay great, or do I do this other thing that pays more but I'm not as excited about? And someone back then told me, she said, do what you love, the money will come. And I was like, I don't know about that. And I'm not saying I'm rich, by any means. And I know they need to pay their rent, I know they need to pay student loans and all that stuff, but I do think that if you do what you love, it'll come through and people will see it and they'll be like, I want you.
Crystal Cardenas:
It's inspiring and it's contagious to be around, people like you who fight the good fight. Thank you so much, Monica. You really did give me all the feels.
Monica Borunda:
Thank you for having me. I love talking to you and I love talking about this. So there's no better combination.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Crystal Cardenas:
Learn even more from Monica and listen to the bonus episode now.
Listen to the episode here: https://linktr.ee/rwyh
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